His latest essay:

"While the Watchtower’s latest tract distribution announces the end of Babylon the Great, citing her support for past wars, it would appear that the greatest slaughter is yet ahead of us.

For a fact, it is absurd to suppose that the nations will suddenly destroy all the religions around the world – as Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to expect is the next ordering of events. No, first must come the great war, which will destroy the present nation-state system and give rise to the totalitarian eighth king. Only afterwards will God put it into the hearts of the world’s leaders to destroy the great harlot – after she has done her part to ignite the great war."

Seems EW is off to see the wizard with his scarecrow man. He is trying to prove JWs wrong by using the old straw man argument. He is trying to say that JWs do not believe a war could lead up to the destruction of false religion. But has the WT really ever stated that? Notice what the WT has said previously:

It remains to be seen just what further issues will provoke the political elements worldwide to act against false religion. But one thing is certain—the execution of Babylon the Great by these elements will be not only their will but also the will of God.

Certainly a war or wars or a nuclear attack which leads to the destruction of false religion is not out of the question. And the destruction of Babylon the great would indeed be the opening phase of the GT. I think EW has just agreed with the WT on that fact.

So much for the hollow challenge that he made previously that JWs cannot show that the opening phase of the GT begins with the destruction of false religion. He has apparently backed down and recognized that JWs are right after all. He just cannot outrightly admit it. And he tries to disguise his admission by his interpretation that a great war must take place before the destruction of false religion.

But here is his problem with this latest interpretation about a great war. The great war that he speaks about is the fulfillment of Jesus' words that nation will rise against nation. That is the view of EW for he states: "No doubt that great war Daniel envisioned is the time of great tribulation sparked by nation warring against nation and kingdom against kingdom, which Christ foretold would occur during the conclusion of the present system of things."

But according to Jesus nation rising against nation does not start the GT as EW alludes to. The GT actually begins when the disgusting thing stands in the holy place. Notice Matt 24:15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

So even if there is a war that leads to the destruction of Babylon the great (which JWs do not rule out) that does not change what Jesus said. He said that the disgusting thing stands in the holy place and then there will be a GT. That is when the GT begins. Whatever happens leading up to that point is not part of the GT. Perhaps it could be that during a war or even at the start of a war the disgusting thing begins standing in the holy place thus beginning the GT. Who knows for sure? But this we do know for sure, and apparently EW is agreeing in his own sly way without admitting that he could not answer the met challenge that he put forth:

The GT begins with the destruction of the rejected holy place, Christendom along with all of Babylon the Great.


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Thus Robert King claims that Christ's parousia is yet future and will be only a short period of time, perhaps 3.5 years which begins with a great war in fulfillment of Jesus' words that nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. He has a huge problem and I believe this bears repeating.

Luke 17 offers a parallel of Matthew 24. An examination of it will reveal the true meaning of parousia.

Luke 17:26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.

Note that 'the days of Noah' = 'the days of the Son of man'.

The days of Noah was a time when people were carrying on the everyday affairs of life and took no note of their impending destruction. They took no note of what Noah was saying and doing. If a great war in the future was to begin Christ's parousia and the GT which would last only 3.5 years, at what point would people began to eat, drink, marry, living their lives as if nothing happened, taking no note? The whole world would be taking note, no doubt about it.

How long were the days of Noah when men were taking no note until the flood came? According to Genesis 6:3 Jehovah says of wicked mankind in the days of Noah: "... his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.” So the days of Noah before the flood, specified by Jehovah, when men were taking no note of Jehovah was at the very least 120 years. Quite an extended period of time.

Enter Matthew 24:37: For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Lets compare this scripture to Luke 17:26,27.

Luke: Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah,
Matt: For just as the days of Noah were

Luke:so it will be also in the days of the Son of man:
Matt:so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Luke: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage,
Matt: For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage,

Luke: until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.
Matt: 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away,

The sentences are virtually the same, almost identical with one notable exception. Luke says 'the days of the Son of man' but Matthew says 'presence of the Son of man'. What can we surmise from this?

The 'days of the Son of man' = the 'presence of the Son of man'.

And both equal the days of Noah when people were living their everyday life taking no note of what Jehovah's servants were doing and saying. Then the flood came and swept them all away. A time period that lasted over 100 years.

The days or presence of the Son of man is not just paralleled by the period when the flood actually swept them all away. The days or parousia of Jesus is paralleled by the days of Noah before the flood also when they were taking no note of what was to come upon them. The days that someone is present involves not only their arrival but the period of days that they remain after their arrival.

Likewise today, for the most part people are living their everyday lives not taking any note of the days or presence of the Son of man and that Jesus is gathering his people into one ark or organization for survival of the impending destruction to be brought upon this wicked system.

So in conclusion, this proves decisively that the presence or parousia or days of the Son of man is a specific extended time period that begins before the actual destruction of the wicked system when people are taking no note of God and his reigning King and what he is doing and taking no note of their impending destruction just like the days of Noah which lasted over 100 years.

In view of this definitive and undeniable scriptural evidence, parousia is no brief coming at the destruction of the wicked as many would have you believe. Not only that but parousia in Matthew 24 can accurately be translated by its root meaning presence and presence accurately depicts the entire meaning of parousia because the days or parousia of the Son of man covers many many years just as the days of Noah covered many many years.

Conclusion: Christ's parousia or presence or days does not begin at the start of the Great Tribulation which corresponds to the flood during the days of Noah. The GT is the final part of the parousia or days of Christ just as the flood was the final part of the days of Noah.


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It seems that e-watchman would like to believe that he has a role in the fullfillment scripture as the appointed watchman to expose the wrongdoing of Jehovah's people. Well he is half right. He does fulfill scripture. But not the one he thinks.

2 Peter 3: 3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?

Excellent posts...

....any lurkers from there should study these posts carefully...it won't be made much clearer for anyone how far off R. King is. ...some prophet/scholar he is... He and TK are sure made for each other...water seeks it's own level as they say

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"For a fact, it is absurd to suppose that the nations will suddenly destroy all the religions around the world – as Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to expect is the next ordering of events. No, first must come the great war, which will destroy the present nation-state system and give rise to the totalitarian eighth king. Only afterwards will God put it into the hearts of the world’s leaders to destroy the great harlot – after she has done her part to ignite the great war." "

LOL I thought the same as you 3W. We've never said there can't be a war or SOMETHING that incites them to take out religion. Why would we say that? Simple--we wouldn't.

Excellent posts.

So this is what Watchman has to resort to to prove himself right -- mislead his readers into thinking his opponent teaches something it does not, then proceed to knock the straw-man down.

Pathetic.

He can do that and teach this nonsense because nobody at the PC will question him, raise a flag or take issues with him. But they are all "Bible Scholars" and "researchers".
I can't believe he make such an outright lie and nobody at the PC questions him

denham said: He can do that and teach this nonsense because nobody at the PC will question him, raise a flag or take issues with him. But they are all "Bible Scholars" and "researchers".
I can't believe he make such an outright lie and nobody at the PC questions him


They mostly just ignore what he says and go on with their own theories so that E-JW is full of many different contradictory 'truths'. Hey, but at least they have their 'Christian freedom' just like Christendom's religions.

Always learning but never coming to an accurate knowledge.

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"Always learning but never coming to an accurate knowledge"

How true! Right on spot

Robert King has responded once again. First lets consider what he does not say. Here is the top 10.

1. First of all you will note that he does not address what Paul said about the two Jerusalem's at all although he entitles his thread, The Two Jerusalems.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2358&reply=108#msg108

2. He does not address the Luke 17 and Matthew 24 parallel where the days of Noah which lasted over 100 years are compared to the parousia of the Son of man or the days of the Son of man.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=2#msg2

3. He does not address how his interpretation contradicts the fact that the the restoration of God's people in the first century took place before, not after, the destruction of the holy place by the King of the North.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2358&reply=109#msg109

4. He fails to address the problem his interpretation has in contradicting 1 Thess 5 that the brothers would not be "in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves," .

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2358&reply=29#msg29

5. He fails to address this simple question:

If unfaithful Jerusalem in the first century which was destroyed by the disgusting thing, the Roman army, corresponds to God's name people today then.............................................

Who correspond to God's name people, the Christians, in the first century?

6. He fails to address this simple point:

But here is his problem with this latest interpretation about a great war. The great war that he speaks about is the fulfillment of Jesus' words that nation will rise against nation. That is the view of EW for he states: "No doubt that great war Daniel envisioned is the time of great tribulation sparked by nation warring against nation and kingdom against kingdom, which Christ foretold would occur during the conclusion of the present system of things."

But according to Jesus nation rising against nation does not start the GT as EW alludes to. The GT actually begins when the disgusting thing stands in the holy place.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=1#msg1

7. He merely scratches the surface in answering this commentrary:

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/10/unfaithful-jerusalem-christendom-or.html

8. He does not even scratch the surface about his patchwork of prophecy and all the problems it has in contradicting the Bible.

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/12/closer-look-at-e-watchmans-patchwork.html

9. He fails to address 1 Peter 3 how people can possibly be saying where is this promised presence as nuclear bombs drop behind them in the back ground during WW III and how people can be eating and drinking and living a normal life taking no note as almost 2 billion people die around them for that is what must take place according to King's interpretation that Christ's parousia begins with WW III, famine, pestilence etc that kills 1/4 of the population and lasts only 3.5 years.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2358&reply=119#msg119

10. Not to mention his problem in Zech 13 and 14.
http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2025&reply=21

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=21#msg21

11. Amos 9 quoted by James at Acts 15--the rebuilding of the booth of David. (Agrarian brings up this 11th point below which I did not include so I have edited my post and added it)
http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2467&reply=1#msg1

12. Christendom left the holy covenant (I left this one out as well as pointed out by BroR and goodwatchman)
http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2396&reply=2#msg2

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2469&reply=6#msg6

13. Preaching of the good news lasted years and occurred before the destruction.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=18#msg18

14. Malachi 3--Jesus comes to the temple for inspection and then refines his people long before the destruction.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=24#msg24

15. The letters to the 7 congregations are in the Lord's day and yet Jesus' coming as a thief is still future at an unknown time.

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=31#msg31

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Now lets take a look at what he does say.

Agrarian, revealed himself to be pathetically ignorant

In spite of their glaring refusal to engage in an honest discussion, Third Witness put on an apelike chest-thumping display and declared that I had "thrown in the towel" and failed to respond to their challenge – this in reference to his sophomoric explanation of the significance of the two Jerusalems.

he simply insists that first century Jerusalem represents Christendom, and by his own empty-headed insistence, Jerusalem supposedly also represents Babylon the Great. However, Third Witness' folly becomes evident to anyone capable of meditating on the Scriptures.

In all fairness to Third Witness, his ignorance of the prophecies is only proportional to the Watchtower’s own ignorance. After all, a student is not above their teacher. The greatest irony is that their ignorance is in fulfillment of prophecy.

The reason Third Witness does not offer any sober interpretation of prophecy is because he is unable to comprehendingly read the prophecies. By his omission, he, like his Watchtower mentors, have said in effect:“I do not know how writing at all.” Embarrassingly for him, though, his prophetic illiteracy has not restrained him from a silly bar room-like drunken display of chest-thumping bravado.

Where will that leave their babbeling apologists, like Third Witness?

Who knows, there exists the possibility that even pathetically blind spiritual drunkards, like Third Witness, might have their eyes miraculously pried open,

end of quotes.

Right away we can see that King's argument has basically been reduced to name calling and insults. This is the favorite tactic of an apostate backed into a corner with no answer. He cannot humbly admit he is wrong so like a rabid dog he lashes out at those who have backed him into the corner trying to devour them with his sharp teeth.

But he does attempt a feeble answer to the response to his challenge. Lets examine it.

Robert King words in italics.

by his own empty-headed insistence, Jerusalem supposedly also represents Babylon the Great.

Strawman alert. This is not a teaching of JWs. Jerusalem represents the most reprehensible part of Babylon the great, Christendom. Robert King knows that. This is a deceitful tactic often used by apostates in attempting to discredit JWs.

Consider, please, that Israel was in a legally binding covenant with Jehovah God. The Jews did not just claim to be in a covenant with God – as the Watchtower claims Christendom merely claims to be in a covenant with God. Jehovah also established Jerusalem as his royal city. With its temple for formal worship, Jerusalem was, as Jehovah’s Witnesses are fond of saying, Jehovah’s visible, earthly organization.

This is where King's interpretation begins to break down. His parallel does not fit at all. The parallel fits exactly with Christendom however. When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE it was NOT God's royal city. It had rejected Jesus and thus Jehovah had rejected Judah and Jerusalem long before the destruction of Jerusalem. Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.

So the truth is that Jerusalem was not in a covenant with Jehovah at the time that it was destroyed. The Jews had lost favor and the covenant had been broken prior to the attack by the Roman army. Just as Jerusalem was a perceived holy place in 66-70 CE, so likewise Christendom today is viewed as a holy place.

What King fails to understand is that when Jesus said the words "when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing ...standing in a holy place," Jerusalem was indeed still a holy place because he said those words before his death and before the old covenant with the Jews had ended.

King's parallel is bogus. Essentially his claim is: Christendom is not really a holy place but Jerusalem really was a holy place in 70CE therefore Jerusalem cannot typify Christendom.

But this is wrong. Jerusalem really was not a holy place in 70CE. It was only perceived to be holy just like Christendom. But it really was a holy place when Jesus spoke the prophecy.

Lets go back to Jesus words in Matt 24:37,38 that Jerusalem would be abandoned. And then he follows in Matt 24 by telling how as regards the temple, a stone will not be left upon a stone. What would this Jerusalem picture? True Christianity in the first century? Was Jesus trying to tell the apostles that true Christianity of the first century would be rejected and destroyed in 70 CE? Hardly. It pictured apostate Judaism and apostate Jerusalem and its destruction.

Today there must also be two groups. True Christianity and apostate Christianity. King would like to place both in one group, Jehovah's Witnesses. That was not the case in the first century at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Why would that be the case today at the Great Tribulation? Today, just as in the first century, their is God's true organization and there is the rejected apostate organization that spring from God's people but rejected him by rejecting the teachings of his Son.

In his letter to the Hebrews Paul went into great detail to describe the various features of the Levitical law regulating the duties and function of the priests and temple. Paul’s purpose in doing so was to help his Hebrew brothers appreciate that the earthly city of Jerusalem had fulfilled its purpose and was soon to become obsolete and eventually destroyed. That’s why Paul reminded the Hebrews that they did not have in earthly Jerusalem a city that remains.

Here King agrees that Jerusalem was no longer holy according to Paul. But he tries to shroud it with mysteriousness in hopes you won't realize what he has just admitted.

However King makes a fatal mistake above even at that. He says that Jerusalem 'was soon to become obsolete'. Paul on the other hand said at Heb 8:13 "In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away." You see it was not 'soon to become obsolete'. It already was obsolete according to Paul and was near to vanishing away not at the time of Paul's writing but rather when Jeremiah wrote about the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. The context shows that Paul refers to the situation of the Law covenant at the time when Jeremiah foretold the new covenant. At the time of Paul's writing it was not only obsolete but had vanished away.

And when the time came they would have to go outside the camp, that is to say, outside of the earthly organization, in order to meet their Lord. But, the point is that before its destruction the earthly city of Jerusalem held great importance for Christians

I think Paul tells what his point is at Heb 13:14 "for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come." The point is that Jerusalem was no longer God's holy city. This is the same point made at Galations 4 by Paul which Robert King has again failed to address but only tries to muddle the picture which he has failed to do with his twisted reasonings.


Then King tries to pull a Constantine by fusing first century Christianity with 1st century Judaism by making statements such as:

Paul and the apostles were intimately connected with the temple and Jerusalem all the way up until both were destroyed in 70 C.E.

it was their unofficial headquarters.

after Pentecost the apostles and disciples regularly stationed themselves in the temple in order to preach.

Paul even ceremoniously cleansed himself and went to the temple to offer up a sacrifice in order to quell the rumors that he was teaching an apostasy from Moses.

So what if the HQ of the gb was in Jerusalem. Because Bethel is in New York does this mean that the WTS are Yankee fans? Absurd, I know, but so is King's statement. So what if Paul took steps not to offend Jews so he could witness to them about Jesus. And so what that they preached at the temple? Who did they preach to?

In that respect, 1st century Jerusalem typifies Jehovah’s earthly organization today; namely, the Watchtower Society and Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses.

No, in that respect, 1st century Christianity typifies Jehovah’s earthly organization today; namely, Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses. How did King make the leap that what first century Christians did, means that first century Judaism pictures JWs today?

The rest of King's defense is trying to interpret prophecy based on his obviously faulty understanding of who first century or BCE apostate Jerusalem typifies. If point A is wrong then obviously point B, C, D, and E as in Ewatchman will be wrong.

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One final point for King to tackle if he dares:

Luke 19:41 And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”

When was Jerusalem inspected? Was it 70CE at its destruction or before that?

After Christ's arrival in his 2nd presence when would the inspection take place? At the destruction of God's apostate wayward people or before that?

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Recommended reading on this subject. WT 2-1-95 pp 4-7.

point # 11- another unanswered "elephant in the room" from 3W's "Amos ch 9 and the restoration" thread.

3W said If Christ's presence has not begun and the booth of David has not been rebuilt then God's people do not exist today as an organized group. But if God's people do not exist as an organized group then there is no organization to apply the future judgement interpretation of EW. You cannot have it both ways. Either Christ's presence has begun and the booth of David has been rebuilt and God has gathered a people for his name or Christ's presence has not begun, the booth of David has not been rebuilt, there is no organized people for God's name and thus no future judgement can come upon God's people.

Sophomoric questions to answer that will leave no doubt what Jesus meant.

Paul points to two Jerusalems at Gal 4:25 she corresponds with the (1)Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the (2)Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

The two Jerusalems according to Paul are:

A. Rejected apostate Jerusalem still in slavery

B. Jerusalem above who is represented on earth by her seed, the anointed.

Now ask yourself this:

When Jesus said at Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her... 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.

Was Jesus referring to Jerusalem A or B?

Two verses later when Jesus said at Matt 24:2, "By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

Was Jesus referring to Jerusalem A or B?

When Jesus said at Matt 24:15, “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, ... standing in a holy place,"

Was Jesus referring to Jerusalem A or B?



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oooh oooooh oooooh oooooh ooohwhaaaaaa oooohwhaaaa ooooohh oooooh ooooooh

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Mark 13:10 "Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first."

First before what?

The question that the apostles asked was in response to Jesus statement about the temple that not a stone would be left upon a stone. Surely Jesus meant that the good news would be preached before that destruction. In fact, that is what Matthew says.

24:14 "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."

Does what actually occurred in the first century bear this out? When was the good news preached in the first century in fulfillment of Jesus' words?

Was it preached only after the disgusting thing stood in the holy place in 66CE? Obviously not. Jesus words found fulfillment from 33CE onward. That is when the good news was preached. Why should we expect the modern day fulfillment in the last days of this system to be any different?

Are you aware that Robert King teaches that Jesus words about the preaching of the good news is fulfilled during only about a 3.5 year period. This preaching of the good news according to him takes place on the heels of WWIII, after the Great Tribulation begans, and after the disgusting thing stands in a holy place (WT) until Armageddon? Doesn't that seem contrary to the scriptures and the first century example?

Lets review.

The reality in harmony with the scriptures and events:

Last days of Jewish system
1. Jesus arrives
2. Restoration of God's people
3. Preaching of the good news
4. GT and Destruction of false religion and system

Last days of this system
1. Jesus arrives
2. Restoration of God's people
3. Preaching of the good news
4. GT and Destruction of false religion and system

It is a perfect fit.


Robert King's interpretation:

Last days of this system
1. WW III, GT, destruction of God's visible organization
2. Jesus arrives
3. Restoration
4. Preaching of good news (less than 3.5 years)
5. Destruction of false religion and system
All in a mere period of about 3.5 years.

It is absurd and is not really typical of the events of the first century.




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While King ponders his quandary lets answer the questions asked earlier according to what the Bible says and according to the actual events that took place.

Luke 19:44, "they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”

When was Jerusalem inspected? Was it 70CE at its destruction or before that?

After Christ's arrival in his 2nd presence when would the inspection take place? At the destruction of God's apostate wayward people or before that?

The Feb 1, 1995 WT comments concerning the Israelites at the time of Jesus' arrival in the first century: Were they as a nation to receive yet another opportunity to repent? No. Jesus said: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” He further said: “Your house,” the temple in Jerusalem, “is abandoned to you.” (Matthew 21:43; 23:3 Their error was too great. They rejected Jesus as Messiah and had him put to death, choosing the oppressive Roman Caesar as their king.—Matthew 27:25; John 19:15.

The Israelites did not want to understand that the period in which Jesus carried out his ministry was a time of judgment. To the unfaithful inhabitants of Jerusalem, Jesus said: “You did not discern the time of your being inspected.”—Luke 19:44.

The time of inspection preceded the destruction by years. And yet Robert King claims that in modern times the inspection and destruction take place at the same time.

This also explains why Revelation 18 tells about the harlot, fallen and judged, even before her destruction. Even after she is judged she still says, 'I sit a queen and I shall never see mourning."

Revelation 18:“She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen,

4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.

For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/11/has-babylon-great-fallen-has-babylon.html

1st century fulfillment
1. Jesus arrives
2. Inspects house of God
3. Judges unfaithful Jerusalem but does not destroy it.
4. Restores true worship, the seed of heavenly Jerusalem identified.
5. Preaching work until the end. (Many years)
6. Years later the destruction of unfaithful Jerusalem and Jewish system of things.

Modern day fulfillment
1. Jesus arrives
2. Inspects house of God
3. Judges unfaithful symbolic Jerusalem (Christendom) but does not destroy it.
4. Restores true worship, the seed of heavenly Jerusalem identified (wheat and weeds).
5. Preaching work until the end. (Many years)
6. Years later the destruction of symbolic unfaithful Jerusalem and final system of things.

Amazing how perfectly the true Bible parallel fits.






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Zechariah 8 particularly verse 23 and Malachi 3 also cause problems for Robert King and his faulty interpretations.

Robert King says in one of his blogs:

Zechariah 13:7 says: “O sword, awake against my shepherd, even against the able-bodied man who is my associate,” is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. “Strike the shepherd, and let those of the flock be scattered; and I shall certainly turn my hand back upon those who are insignificant.”

The prophecy of Zechariah was initially fulfilled when the good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, was struck by the executioner’s sword and the apostles were all momentarily scattered. Nevertheless, the prophecy has an application to God’s judgments during the Lord’s day. That should be plainly evident by the context of the following 14th chapter of Zechariah, which describes Armageddon as immediately subsequent to the scattering of the flock.

Jesus applied the scripture not at the end of the Jewish system at the time that Jerusalem was destroyed. He applied it to the time when he was struck at his death and the apostles were scattered. And this was to be followed by the gathering of the anointed beginning at Pentecost, 33CE, the 1/3 that would be refined spoken of in Zechariah 13. "Then Jesus said to them: “All of YOU will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’ But after I have been raised up, I will go ahead of YOU into Gal′i·lee" Matt 26:31,32.

King would have us believe that the striking of the shepherd in its final fulfillment means the destruction of the WT with its evil slave by the King of the North at the time of the Great Tribulation. Thus having us believe that the God's Son represents both the good and evil slave inside the WT. How absurd!

He then precedes to explain that the 2/3 that are cut off and the 1/3 that is saved applies to JWs during the GT. But then in Chapter 14 of Zechariah he is left with a big dilemma because 1/2 of the saved 1/3 is then spoken of as going into exile. It makes a person wonder just how many restorations of God's anointed are there anyway. Are we to expect another restoration after Ewatchmen and his followers lose God's favor? Who will be the Watchman of Ewatchman? Oooh OOh pick me.

He pretends to know a better way than even Jesus himself to make application of the prophecy. When it comes to the application of the prophecies by Jesus and first century inspired Bible writers, King merely pushes them aside in order to fit the prophecies into his preconceived notion as God's self proclaim prophet/watchmen.

For King's interpretation to really be considered legitimate Zechariah 13:7 should have been fulfilled upon the wayward shepherds in 66 or 70 CE at the time of the GT upon Jerusalem. But Christ shows that it was not fulfilled at the time of Jerusalem's destruction on either the wayward Christian shepherds or the wayward Jewish shepherds. It was fulfilled in 33CE on the good shepherd at his death and at the outpouring of holy spirit on his followers at Pentecost 33CE.

Yes, the true application makes sense and it fits in with what the apostles and Jesus said. No twisting is necessary.

1st century fulfillment of Zech 13
1. Jesus arrives.
2.. 3.5 years later the Shepherd Jesus (Primary seed of heavenly Jerusalem) is struck and sheep scatter.
3. Apostles regather, holy spirit is poured out, 1/3 representing the anointed, 2/3 (rejected apostate Judaism)are cut off from being kingdom heirs.
4. preaching of the good new.
5. Destruction of rejected apostate Judaism and Jewish system.

Final fulfillment
1. Jesus arrives.
2. 3.5 years later, Shepherd struck by striking the remaining ones of the seed of heavenly Jerusalem.
3. Remnant regather being the 1/3. Rejected Christendom (the 2/3) cut off from being kingdom heirs.
4. Preaching of the good news.
5. Destruction of rejected apostate Christendom and this system.



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The evidence just keeps on mounting. Sorry if I am overwhelming anyone. Maybe we need to do a FJV site like the NGO and 607 sites.

I doubt we will even see Robert King attempt to answer any of the points above. He should probably just pretend he didn't see any of it and remain silent and hope that it all just goes away.

3W...these are very good and useful posts...If a FJV site could be done, it would be very useful to me personally..as the other mini-sites have proved to be.

Obviously there is no defending the indefensible...What could King or anyone say to any of the of the above?...Exactly what he's said so far....

nothing

you can begin your "ape-like chest thumping" any time now. LOL
Like the two Jerusalems posts ...these are very clear and easily reasoned on..All compiled it would make a very helpful mini-site in my opinion...

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Malachi was written at a time when the Jews and Priests of Israel had once again become unfaithful. So it was prophecied how Jehovah would correct matters.

Of course Robert King will claim that that Malachi has a future fulfillment after the WT falls at the hands of the disgusting thing and then the restoration of God's people (no doubt led by Ewatchman and his cohorts) will take place. But again we ask, is that in accord with the first century fulfillment?

Here is Malachi 3:1-4.

Mal 3:1 “Look! I --Jehovah-- am sending my messenger --John the Baptist--, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord --Jehovah--, whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant --Jesus-- in whom YOU are delighting. Look! He will certainly come,” Jehovah of armies has said.'

Then the verses describe the refining of God's people and the restoration of true worship.

“But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen, 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 4 And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be gratifying to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity.

So here is the first century fulfillment.

1. 29CE John begins baptizing and preparing the way.
2. 6 months later Jesus, king designate, is baptized and anointed.
3..3.5 years later he comes to the literal temple and drives out the money changers. He declares that the Jews have been judged and that the kingdom will be taken away from them. They did not recognize their time of inspection. Luke 19:44.
4. Anointing at Pentecost and restoration.
5. Years later, the destruction of apostate rejected Judaism.

Keep in mind that John the baptizer, (also pictured by Elijah in Mal 4:5) prepared the way for the arrival of Jesus, calling Jews to repent and turning their hearts back toward God. Of course, he was a Jew himself and part of God's covenant people who had, as a nation, left Jehovah's ways.

The parallel.

John pictures the anointed remnant, the messenger who would prepare the way for Jesus. Just as John was part of the Jews who had become wayward so the anointed remnant were part of the religious order of the day that had strayed from Bible truths. It was time for an awakening.

This messenger, the anointed remnant, had made great strides in returning to the truths found in the Bible and were calling people to repentance and a returning to Jehovah. They also pointed to 1914 as the end of the Gentile times.

1914--The messenger of the covenant, the King Jesus arrived.

3.5 years later, Jehovah came to inspect the temple by means of His Son, Jesus. The result was a rejection of the false religious system Christendom. And the beginning of a refinement and cleansing process for the true servants of God.

Take note of some of the verses in Malachi 3 which clearly applies to God's restored people today before the Great Tribulation comes.

10 Bring all the tenth parts into the storehouse, that there may come to be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this respect,” Jehovah of armies has said, “whether I shall not open to YOU people the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out upon YOU a blessing until there is no more want.”

16 At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.

17 “And they will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said, “at the day when I am producing a special property.

18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”

Doesn't this sound like Jehovah's Witnesses today?

Lets review.

1st century fulfillment

1. John prepares the way
2. King designate arrives.
3..Cleans temple. Judaism rejected.
4. Restoration--a special property belonging to Jehovah.
5. Floodgates of blessings opened
6. Preaching work--each one speaking to his companion
7. A people for His Name--those thinking on Jehovah's name
8. Clear distinction between righteous one and wicked one.
9. Years later, the destruction of apostate rejected Judaism and system. 70CE

Final fulfillment

1. John (anointed) prepares the way (late 1800s)
2. King designate arrives. 1914
3. Cleans temple. Christendom rejected. Babylon falls.
4. Restoration--a special property belonging to Jehovah.
5. Floodgates of blessings opened. Refinement. Increase.
6. Preaching work--each one speaking to his companion
7. A people for His Name--those thinking on Jehovah's name
8. Clear distinction between righteous one and wicked one. (wheat and weeds)
9. Years later, the destruction of apostate rejected Christendom and system. Future

Malachi does not show a literal destruction of God's people by a literal army of soldiers before the true Lord arrives at the temple and refines and cleans it. Neither does the events of the first century show a literal destruction by the Roman army before 1st century Christianity is born.

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The Watchtower interprets numerous prophecies in a way that depicts true Christianity being more or less gradually swallowed up and overshadowed by babylonish Christendom down through the centuries; until the restoration of the true congregation in the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in modern times.

The problem with that teaching is that it disallows the plain fact that the restoration of the true congregation comes after God allows an unexpected disaster to befall his people. According to the Watchtower, though, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple finds a parallel in the annihilation of Christendom—in the future. So, the proverbial cart is ahead of the horse, in that we suppose that a restoration has occurred before the need for reclamation and salvation has even arisen!

That reminds me of what Diotrephes might have told Peter in the first century, before Jerusalem was destroyed, in trying to prove that first century Christianity was not the fulfillment of the restoration prophecies.

The Christians interpret numerous prophecies in a way that depicts true Judaism being more or less gradually swallowed up and overshadowed by babylonish Judaism down through the centuries (from Malachi's time); until the restoration of the true congregation in the organization of The Way in modern times (first century).

The problem with that teaching is that it disallows the plain fact that the restoration of the true congregation comes after God allows an unexpected disaster to befall his people. According to The Way, though, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (in 607) finds a parallel in the annihilation of apostate Judaism—in the future (70CE). So, the proverbial cart is ahead of the horse, in that we suppose that a restoration has occurred before the need for reclamation and salvation has even arisen!

Christ Jesus also connected his presence with the days of Noah, saying, "And they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." Notice, please, that Christ likened his presence to the actual destruction brought on by the unleashing of the deluge.

That statement above by badwatchman is very deceptive. Notice the entire scripture at Matt 24 that he quoted partially:

For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

And notice a parallel scripture in Luke 17:

26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.

Both scriptures show that it is not just the 'actual destruction brought on by the unleashing of the deluge' that is likened to Christ's days or presence. It also includes the days, even years, leading up to the flood when people were taking no note.

For more details look here badwatchman: http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=2#msg2

Very deceptive of you indeed.





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In comparing Revelation 11 about the two witnesses and Zechariah 2-6 we find that the vision of Rev 11 is based on the vision and events that occurred in Zech 2-6.

Zech 2:10 sums it all up: “Cry out loudly and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for here I am coming, and I will reside in the midst of you,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 11 “And many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you.” And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to you. 12 And Jehovah will certainly take possession of Judah as his portion upon the holy ground, and he must yet choose Jerusalem."

Zech 4 says: 9 “The very hands of Ze·rub´ba·bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish [it]. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to YOU people. 10 For who has despised the day of small things? And they will certainly rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Ze·rub´ba·bel.

The joining of many nations to Jehovah would start out small because note verse 10 calls it 'the day of small things'. In 1918 about 20,000 attended the memorial I believe it was. Now there are almost 1000 times that many attending. This proves that this event took place at the beginning of the restoration not at the end as the Robert King will tell you.

He will of course probably claim that now is the day of small things when his internet group is just beginning, a group of disunited and disgruntled complaining people who do not preach the good news of the Kingdom at all, many who do not even believe King's teachings. And when the WT falls they will be there to do the Lord's work. And the 6.6 million JWs who now exist will be scattered and regrouped under the Watchman and then in a short period of time less than 3.5 years long they will preach the good news of the Kingdom world wide and the people will flock to the protection of the spiritual paradise under the self appointed Watchman.

Now tell me does this sound reasonable to you? If it does then you might as well go follow the Chieftan David Burney as well because his theory is not much different from that of the 'Watchman'.

For more details: http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2297&reply=10



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A few chapters later it is even explained in more detail as to how the many nations will join to Jehovah.

8:20 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will yet be that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will come; 21 and the inhabitants of one [city] will certainly go to [those of] another, saying: “Let us earnestly go to soften the face of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I myself will go also.” 22 And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of Jehovah.’

23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”


Here is what it should say if Robert King is correct.

23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”

23.5 "But the skirt was befouled and it was ripped off and his nakedness was exposed and the ten men and the Jew were scattered. In that day I shall certainly clothe the Jew with a beautiful garment of righteousness and the ten men will return and take hold of the new skirt of the regathered Jew saying, “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”




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We should first establish that the events that John sees in Revelation are events that occur in the Lord’s Day. At Rev 1:10 John writes, "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet…” This clearly establishes that every vision and every happening that John sees are in the Lord’s Day and not before. He then sees in the latter part of chapter one Jesus walking in the midst of the congregations. When? In the Lord’s Day!

Then notice verse 11: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph´e·sus and in Smyr´na and in Per´ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti´ra and in Sar´dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce´a.” He then proceeds to write Jesus’ words to the congregations both commending them as well as counseling them. The point is that the congregations have been established by the time of the Lord’s Day for they exist and are receiving the letters in the Lord’s day.

Let us take note of some of the phrases written to those congregations during the Lord’s Day:

Rev 2:5, “If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”
Rev 2:16, “Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.”
Rev 2:25, “Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come.”
Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."

Do you notice what these phrases have in common? According to these verses Jesus Christ has not yet come as a thief in the night to execute judgment. That is yet future. There is still time to repent. And remember, according to the earlier scripture John was transferred into the Lord’s Day. We can therefore conclude that the Lord’s Day or presence actually begins before his coming to execute those who do not keep awake and those who do not repent. Even after the Lord's day or presence begans it is vital to keep awake until he arrives as a thief in the night at some future time to execute judgement.

Yes, the Lord’s Day or presence comes before his arrival as a thief in the night at the GT/Armageddon.

On the other hand, the future judgment view promoted by Robert King would have us believe that the arrival of the Lord's day or Christ's presence is synonymous with Jesus' coming as a thief in the night. Obviously from the letters to the 7 congregations it is not.

1. The Lord's day or presence begans first.

2. Sometime later Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night to execute judgement.

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Just for the record, the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and Judah in 607 was not followed by immediate restoration. 70 years passed before there was a restoration. And the restoration of Jerusalem in 537 involved putting aside Babylonish false ideas, repentance, and obedience on the part of those Jews returning to Judah.

Nor was their any restoration immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE.

All the prophecies of a restoration when applied by first century Bible writers as well as Jesus, were applied to the time following a spiritual devastation of God's people not a literal one. The literal destruction, as prophesied, occurred years later after the spiritual restoration and came upon those who did not heed the call to repentance and restoration.

Robert King's interpretation of how the prophecies would be paralleled on JWs in modern times does not fit in no way, no shape, no form, no how.



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That's the crux of the matter really - JWs interpret the prophecies using the same pattern the apostles did in the 1st century.

Surely that is the only way to do it.

The FJV essentially ignores the way the apostles interpreted the prophecies and directly contradicts them.

Robert King, Burney, and whoever else, really has no business interpreting the prophecies in a way which contradicts inspired interpretations recorded in the Bible. Because of this, their ideas were wrong from the start.

The apostles interpreted the prophecies surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem to a spiritual devastation, an apostasy of sorts, (prior to Jesus), lasting a long time, then spiritual restoration (1st century), followed by the destruction of the rejected Holy Place (Jerusalem, 70CE).

The scriptures then foretold the great apostasy and the man of lawlessness - which was already at work in the 1st century according to the Bible.

Likewise today, we recognize that great apostasy as being spiritual devastation (prior to Jesus' presence), lasting a long time, then spiritual restoration (1914 onwards), followed by the destruction of rejected Holy Place (Christendom, near future).

This fits Jehovah's pattern of giving a warning and a chance to repent to persons before he acts. Prior to 70CE he had the early Christians preaching to the rejected apostate House of God (Judaism), asking people to repent and serve Jehovah. After sufficient warning, her destruction came. So too today, Jehovah's people preach to the rejected apostate House of God (Christendom), asking people to repent and serve Jehovah. After sufficient warning, her destruction will come.

The Future Judgment View, on the other hand, turns this all on its head and creates a mass of self-contradictory patchwork which is, quite frankly, unworkable. It also denies history - that true Christianity turned into Christendom (also contradicting the Bible on this point too - remember the man of lawlessness arose in the 1st century).

That's why I stopped writing those essays based on the FJV and concluded that e-Watchman is wrong. Because it just doesn't work. It's wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

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3W, I think a short summary of how, when, and where the apostles did interpret the ancient prophecies would be useful.

While it is true that that Jehovah no longer really considered earthly Jerusalem and its temple holy....

....Jesus and the apostles did—at least nominally.

I think the two watchman's together have proven the point. Jerusalem was not really holy to Jehovah in 66CE and other servants of God viewed it as holy in name only--the definition of nominally.

Christendom is exactly the same. It is not holy to Jehovah. It only claims to be holy. It is holy in name only. We know it is not really holy just like the apostles knew that Jerusalem was not really holy any longer. Jehovah and Jesus and his servants viewed Jerusalem and now Christendom as holy in name only. It was/is not really holy.

Thanks good and bad watchman for showing us that you agree with the clear scriptural parallel between Jerusalem and Christendom.

Goodwatchman, can you convince badwatchman to remove those essays and commentaries that contradict the above statements made by both of you?

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If he considered it holy he would not have allowed pagan gods to overcome his "holy place" and finally stand in it, then leave, and come back and wipe it out. It practically got raped (for lack of a better word). :S

Fulfillment of Zephaniah 3:1-20 as I understand it.

The first 5 verses describes the attitude of unfaithful Jersusalem, who parallels Christendom, destined for destruction.

1 Woe to her that is rebelling and polluting herself, the oppressive city! 2 She did not listen to a voice; she did not accept discipline. In Jehovah she did not trust. To her God she did not draw near. 3 Her princes in the midst of her were roaring lions. Her judges were evening wolves that did not gnaw [bones] till the morning. 4 Her prophets were insolent, were men of treachery. Her priests themselves profaned what was holy; they did violence to [the] law. 5 Jehovah was righteous in the midst of her; he would do no unrighteousness. Morning by morning he kept giving his own judicial decision. At daylight it did not prove lacking. But the unrighteous one was knowing no shame.

Then we have the prophecy of the destruction of all the nations so sure that it is described as if it has already happened though really it is a prophecy.

6 “I cut off nations; their corner towers were desolated. I devastated their streets, so that there was no one passing through. Their cities were laid waste, so that there was no man, so that there was no inhabitant. 7 I said, ‘Surely you will fear me; you will accept discipline’; so that her dwelling might not be cut off—all that I must call to account against her. Truly they acted promptly in making all their dealings ruinous.

Now the key verses describing the need to be in expectation. If expectation is needed then Armageddon must not be happening at the time described in the verses 8 and 9, otherwise expectation is finished since the real thing has arrived.

8 “‘Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘till the day of my rising up to [the] booty (Armageddon) , for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms (before Armageddon takes place)in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured (Prophecy of what will be done at Armageddon). 9 For then ( During the time of expectation, before Armageddon, when the nations are being gathered together for the denounciation to be poured out at Armageddon) I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’

Again the serving Jah shoulder to shoulder and the pure language takes place not at Armageddon but at the time the nations are being gathered together for the pouring out of God's judgment at Armageddon. This is being done even now by the preaching work and the gathering of God's people. Those who do not learn the pure language and do not serve Jehovah shoulder to shoulder will be included among the nations that are slated for destruction at Armageddon when God's burning anger is poured out.

10 “From the region of the rivers of E·thi·o´pi·a the ones entreating me, [namely,] the daughter of my scattered ones, will bring a gift to me. 11 In that day you will not be ashamed because of all your dealings with which you transgressed against me, for then I shall remove from the midst of you your haughtily exultant ones; and you will never again be haughty in my holy mountain. 12 And I shall certainly let remain in the midst of you a people humble and lowly, and they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah. 13 As regards the remaining ones of Israel, they will do no unrighteousness, nor speak a lie, nor will there be found in their mouths a tricky tongue; for they themselves will feed and actually lie stretched out, and there will be no one making [them] tremble.”

This applies to the cleansing of God's people. Even today God's people are a cleansed people and known wrongdoers are not allowed in and unrepentant wrongdoers are removed when found out. It is an ongoing progress and ultimately prior to Armageddon Jehovah will remove haughty ones, evil doers, those trying lead others into apostasy, etc. Only those humble ones will be left remaining among God's people during Armageddon. The other disloyal, false witnesses will be removed and destroyed. Then to the very fullest degree the prophecy will be fulfilled that no unrighteous ones will be among God's people.




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goodwatchman, I have a thought you might want to pass on to badwatchman. You might want to remind badwatchman not to make such an issue of the DPI/NGO association. Why? Because badwatchman believes that the Lord's day is yet future. If badwatchman really believs this, then how can the UN really be the disgusting thing since that is revealed only in the Lord's Day? Since badwatchman believes this it would not be wise for him to have a tantrum and throw papers at the elders and get df'ed over it. Just some friendly advice.

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Diogenes - clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

Hey ecan..I agree with you here...LOL

excellent point Diogenes...excellent post

Just wanted to keep this before all to show Robert King's total failure at interpreting prophecy and answering the responses to his challenge.

He has went and hid in the cave hoping that no one will notice.

Where is 'God's watchman' crying out full throatedly showing the folly of the 'kingdom con men' of the WT?

Surely if scales have fallen off his eyes and he has truth unlike any others he should be shouting from the roof top these truths?

Where is this watchman/prophet? Is he just a wiley ole apostate heading for the hills at crunch time? Has he ran out of fingers to poke in Jehovah's eyeball?

Is he waiting for a word from conspiracy theorists Lyndon LaRouche who he holds in such great esteem? Or perhaps a word from his mentor David Burney of Living Waters?

Where oh where has the 'Watchman' and his god of interpretation gone? Who really worships a Baal-like god who fails to make a showing at the issued challenge?

Who really is the kingdom con man?

gorilla

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Third Witness put on an apelike chest-thumping display and declared that I had "thrown in the towel" and failed to respond to their challenge

BadW, what is going on with two Jerusalems ? Are you still waiting in the forest for visions and revealations ?

a few years ago I had an intense, life-altering spiritual experience that very few of Jehovah's Witnesses living today can relate to. For lack of a better term, I became born again, as Jesus worded it. I refer to it as 'my little change.'

It was like reading the Bible for the first time. Everything seemed freshand new, as if, like Paul described, scales had fallen from my eyes, so asto see things in a new light. As a result, my awareness of my relationship with Jehovah and Jesus gradually changed.

The parousia is not a long drawn out period that spans several generations, whereby we must continually endure
and keep on the watch even during Christ's presence.

Jesus' apostles asked for a sign of Christ's presence, not his coming. There is a huge difference.

What is logical is that Jesus' presence initiates the beginning pangs of distress due to the fact that the first order of business for the newly crowned Christ is ousting Satan and the demons from heaven. Jesus only manifests himself later towards the conclusion.

The Bible most definitely supports the teaching that Christ has a parousia that culminates with his complete unvieling. .

2 Thessalonians 2:8 "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence."

"The manifestation of his presence" indicates that the presence spans a period of time, during which Christ operates in secret until he manifests himself before his enemies. The fact that his presence becomes manifest proves that there is an interval when his presence is not manifested. The interval before his ultimate manifestation is marked by wars, food shortages and pestilence, which serve as the sign of Christ's presence -- when he initially goes forth, conquering, bent on complete conquest of all of Jehovah's enemies in heaven and on earth.


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It seems to me that the prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar's tree is a decoy of sorts. Yes, the language seems to lend itself to applying to Christ's kingdom and the chronology seems compelling enough, but it could be that this is the means by which Jehovah has concealed the truth about Christ's presence from us that we "might not see through it" until such time as Jesus actually commences his presence.



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It is hard to believe the reasoning of badwatchman. He here essentially admits that the tree dream of Daniel 4 seems to point to Christ's kingdom began to rule in 1914, but Jehovah put those scriptures in there to fool his people.

Using this reasoning what can we believe? Maybe God put those scriptures that disprove the Trinity in the Bible to fool his people so that he can chastise them at a later time.

We could go on and on with this foolish reasoning.

Is there anyone else out there who would like to make an honest effort to answer the challenge? Or are you content to rest on your laurels? LOL

PS, I would have thought that if anyone wanted to defend the Watchtower's teaching they would have at least cut and pasted what the Watchtower actually offers as support. (Hint: That would at least be a starting point for addressing the issue)

What's the point. You don't listen. You ignore what you can't argue with and pretend the evidence doesn't exist.

But why bother arguing with a man so deluded he thinks hes a prophet of God? Surely that is arguing with mad man. Arguing with a crazy person is pointless. The only solution is to heal his craziness first, then and only then can can he be reasoned with.

Badwatchman said this back when he first issued the challenge when we were just beginning to answer his challenge and show his interpretation to be both unscriptural and false.

At some point he went from 'apelike chest thumping' (his words) to a 'speechless dog.'

3W, I absolutey LOVE this:

It is hard to believe the reasoning of badwatchman. He here essentially admits that the tree dream of Daniel 4 seems to point to Christ's kingdom began to rule in 1914, but Jehovah put those scriptures in there to fool his people.

Using this reasoning what can we believe? Maybe God put those scriptures that disprove the Trinity in the Bible to fool his people so that he can chastise them at a later time.

We could go on and on with this foolish reasoning.

It's the ultimate in Robert King logic!

Yes, the scriptures DO contradict what I'm saying - but AH-HA - that has been cleverly put there to FOOL YOU into THINKING that I am wrong! But what I say is ACTUALLY right!

Aren't you glad I'm here to tell you what REALLY is the TRUTH of GODS WORD!

Oh, its an absolute classic.

What a freakin' genius that man is. I don't think I could have come up with that myself in a million years. wow.

A couple of weeks ago I issued a public challenge to Jehovah's Witnesses to defend or explain the Watchtower's insistence that the great tribulation commences with the destruction of false religion. To my knowledge, so far no one has accepted the challenge. If any of Jehovah's Witnesses are up to the task please post on this forum or email me or provide a link to a blog or website with the defense. It is especially important to establish the truth of this matter since all of Jehovah's Witnesses will be participating in a tract work this Autumn announcing the end of false religion is near. So, I will look forward to discussing this matter in public debate.

BW said: It is especially important to establish the truth of this matter

Me: I believe the truth has been established. The silence of BW tells us he has no response for clear Bible truth.

BW said: I will look forward to discussing this matter in public debate

Me: I am reminded of a verse from a song which goes, "The answer my friend is blowing in the wind." BW's silence tells us he was just blowing in the wind when he said this, just like his answers.

wow...I actually think this is about one of the most bizarre things I've ever witnessed..,in a movie recently I heard this quote from Mark Twain...where he asked "what is the difference between real life and fiction?": ..."fiction has to be credible." ..... that is so true

wow ...unbelievable