My observation is that those who insist on telling Jehovah's Witnesses "the truth about the truth" don't know the truth themselves and are not really capable of imparting to Jehovah's Witnesses anything having to do with faith."



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I agree with you good watchman. But by Robert King trying to get others to give his book to unsuspecting JWs, he must not agree with what you are saying.

I would suggest that you buy several copies of the book. I suggest that you give a copy to family or friends, send a copy to Bethel, give one to your circuit or district overseer. For those who would like to do more but simply can't afford to buy a book, why not email a friend or an acquaintance this web address and let them look at the information for themselves?

Since most of Jehovah's Witnesses are not spiritually ill, why should you want to force down their throats a dose of medicine that they do not need? Shall we first cause our brother to have doubts just so we can save him from his doubts? Do you imagine that you know what is best for the millions of Jehovah's Witnesses

it is possible for some to become so deluded that they imagine that they are serving Jehovah by advertising the Society's shortcomings, when in Jehovah's judgment such ones are merely scandal-mongers and fault-finders and working as partners with our many enemies to subvert our faith

lol

Now, ask yourself, if I preach my views to the congregation, even if I am totally convinced of the rightness of my position, what will be the likely outcome? Will it result in the congregation being built up and encouraged, or will it result in dissension, resentment, needless struggle and debate? If you will honestly supply yourself the answer to that question you should be empowered to know the right course to take.

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Do we sacrifice the truth just so we can all believe the same thing? ...what makes me think I am right: It is easier, much easier, to prove the Watchtower's prophetic interpretations wrong.

anyone who teaches something contrary to the Watchtower is working against the congregation and is viewed as an enemy. Whether what you say is true or false is really not the point. The thing to remember is that most of Jehovah's Witnesses do not have issues with what the Watchtower teaches us....That being the case, why should we want to be the ones to set a stumbling block before others by pointing out the Watchtower's errors?

In modern times, the World Wide Web has provided the perfect medium for circumventing the Watchtower’s information monopoly over Jehovah’s Witnesses and has allowed a modern watchman to publicly announce Jehovah’s coming judgments.

It is because of my soulful fear of Almighty God that I have been moved to disregard the Watchtower's injunction against such things as "independent thinking," in order to set Jehovah's confidential matter before my brothers and the organization.

If a person has reason to believe that there are certain incorrect teachings, ...then it becomes all the more a matter of faith in Jehovah to set things straight, as the law and prophets promise he will.

We are under obligation to love one another. Love always looks out for the other person's best interest. Jesus himself lovingly held back from telling his apostles things that he knew they couldn't bear at the time. If, now, Christ holds back from burdening his disciples with the whole truth, until such time as he judges us to be ready to bear up under it, why should we imagine that it is our God-assigned duty to lay bear the Watchtower's errors before the congregation?

unbelievable...

Wow.. I think badwatchman has violated our terms of service

over the last several years dozens of people have been disfellowshipped by the Watchtower Society for questioning 1914; or the WT's hypocritical NGO affair; and the Society's child abuse policies.

Many of those who were DFed do not have weak faith. They were in fact moved by their faith to speak out against the evils which they saw and experienced. As you know, I did not encourage those actions. Perhaps by example, but not otherwise, neither privately nor publicly. I can only attribute their course of action to the interaction of Jehovah's spirit upon them.

Goodwatchman, How would you answer someone who is trying to tell others 'the truth about the truth' as the saying goes and now the congregation is starting to look at them with suspicion?

Naturally, anyone who teaches contrary to accepted doctrine is viewed with suspicion, and rightly so. The apostle Paul advised the brothers "to keep an eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned and avoid them." So, the reason you are being treated that way is because the congregation views you as someone who is causing divisions and thoughtlessly placing stumbling blocks before others. The question you should ask yourself is what you hope to accomplish by doing that.

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I sort of lost it and threw the papers the length of the conference table and told the brothers to take it home and do some reading. I think it sort of went down hill from there. I heatedly demanded to know why they were not disturbed by such things. No one said a word. They just sat there gazing at me stone-faced. I chided and held them in derision for their silence.

After they told me they were going to uphold the original decision, I told them 1914 was an “artfully contrived false story” and that Jehovah was going to turn the Watchtower upside down—and that at some point they were going to have to take the WT training wheels off and demonstrate their loyalty to Jehovah and not the WT. .... I suspect they will not soon forget our little meeting.

First, you must consider the possibility that you are in error as well. When Jesus wrote to the seven congregations of his anointed ones, he twice mentioned that he hated the deeds of the sect of Nicolaus.....it would be wise on your part to make sure that you have not fallen victim to the evil influence of the modern day sect of Nicolaus.

those who are disfellowshipped for apostasy are guilty of calling down evil on Christ's brothers. So, at some point each will have to acknowledge their error or face the consequences.

Badwatchman, no one is disfellowshipped by the Watchtower Society.

In the 50th Psalm Jehovah issues a scathing rebuke to those of his people who presume to teach others his regulations, but who, among other things, give away the faults of their brothers and are partners with thieves and adulterers. Verse 21 says: "You imagined that I would positively become like you. I am going to reprove you, and I will set things in order before your eyes."Jesus also spoke of those who would imagine that they were performing a sacred service by murdering his children. So, it is possible for some to become so deluded that they imagine that they are serving Jehovah by advertising the Society's shortcomings, when in Jehovah's judgment such ones are merely scandal-mongers and fault-finders and working as partners with our many enemies to subvert our faith."

Badwatchman said: Many of those who were DFed do not have weak faith. They were in fact moved by their faith to speak out against the evils which they saw and experienced. As you know, I did not encourage those actions. Perhaps by example, but not otherwise, neither privately nor publicly. I can only attribute their course of action to the interaction of Jehovah's spirit upon them. end of quote

Question: What did you tell Melancholymuse after she was DFed for apostasy?

Dear Tami

You are a very brave sister. You stood up for the truth. You faced a tribunal and stood fast on principle.

Does apostasy is equivalent for the truth?

When talking about the honesty of the bible writers, we often point out that they haven’t tried to hide bad things that they have done. The best example of this in my mind is David’s affair that resulted in the murder of a good man.

The society has also followed this example, but only to an extent. There are a lot of information that most of us will not feel comfortable talking publicly for fear of being accused of apostasy.

But what is really the sin? It is not necessarily the act of talking about the information, but the way the person to who we speak to takes it. For instance, there are subjects for which I do not agree with the WBTS. These subject, I can discuss with a 2 or 3 friends of mine; but others, I will not even start skimming the top of the subject. Why put questions in the minds of people that don’t even want to? Who need to believe things that you may blur in their minds? The light is progressive for the organisation, but for its own members too. Telling them things they are not ready to hear could draw them away from the Truth and make you blood guilty.

Also, there are subject that I have no problem discussing in public and that many of the apostate consider “proofs” that the society is wrong or evil. Well, It all depends of when and how the information is placed.

The key attitude here is love.

On the other hand, a lot of overzealous B&S could perhaps understand things better if the society wrote material that explained more on God's spirit direction vs inspiration. Its not because the society wrote it that Jehovah said so, or thinks so. And the problem with this is that some or actually, many think that it is a sin to doubt anything the society write. And that is an argument that the Apostate love to dwell on. Only problem with this is that it is still not a big point enough to go out of the organisation, then turn around and bash on your fellow B&S.

Let’s not forget, for 40 years, the Israelites had to follow Moses, a man that they knew would not enter to promised land himself.

Some of our leaders may not even get into paradise. All that we know for sure, is our personal relationship with Jah and our need to be among people who believe the same things as us.


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Love. And humility. That's all it really takes to stay in the truth.

Love helps us to overlook the faults of our brothers, knowing that they, as we ourselves, will have them.

Humility helps us to understand that we do not see the big picture, whereas Jehovah does. If we believe that God exists, and that He cares for us, we can trust our spiritual future to His hands, and continue confidently to work along with His organization.

The Kingdom News #37 shows plainly the differences between true and false religion. It is clear that we have the true religion as outlined in the Bible.

Going away to anything else is going away into falsehood and the Father of the Lie.

do you believe that Jehovah is going to judge his people and set all things straight among his people? If you accept what the Scriptures say in this connection, rather than trying to serve Jehovah on your own terms, wouldn't the logical thing be to return to the truth?

goodwatchman, Although I disagree with your future judgment view, I really like your humble attitude. I believe if you gave us a chance to answer all the apostate derived accusations made by badwatchman that we could show you that badwatchman has no real basis for such denouncements.

This is why EW has had a measure of success. Because his interpretations are based on some truth. For example, Ray Franz was on the GB. He proved himself to be part of the apostate evil slave. Many thousands of others have had to be removed from the organization for unclean practices. Some have not been caught yet and remain part of the organization. The GT and Armageddon will be the final cleansing that proves what each one of us are.

But here is where EW deviates from the scriptures. He has become the judge in Christ's place. He has failed to follow the scriptures that he himself has quoted about waiting on Jehovah. Rather than following the counsel to be submissive to those taking the lead he has become the judge of those taking the lead. In other words, Robert himself has become king.

And here is where he also fails to show insight. It is not God's organization that is destroyed because of wrongdoing. It is those who prove unfaithful to God and who fail to support Christ's brothers in God's organization that are rejected and destroyed. It is those who are like Korah who complain and criticize and cause divisions and refuse to be obedient to those taking the lead that will be disowned. It is ironic that he has indeed preached that Jehovah's judgment will first come upon the house of God not realizing that he himself has become a part of that apostate 'house of God', a part of Christendom that Jehovah will execute because he has become a leader for those Korah like people by his words and example. Rather than leading people away from the unfavorable judgment of God as he apparently imagines he is doing, he has led them straight into that judgment.

I want nothing more than that my brothers should trust Jehovah to set things straight.

I "disassociated" myself in the late 80's; and after a lot of soul searching, I decided I will try and go back to the Kingdom Hall and possibly get "reinstated." When I went to the hall the Elders were a bit perplexed as to why I was there because my "disassociation" was rather heated. (I put the elders on trial for about 3hrs in my own home) So, they were nervous the minute they saw me. But, now, they have avoided me like the plague…So I am here to tell all the ex-JW's that are thinking about going back be prepared to being treated like you have leprosy. They will never look to you again the same way they did before you left and you will always have "apostate" written on your forehead.



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In your case, by your own admission, you "put the elders on trial." Do you think that was fair or loving? More than likely, leading up to your disassociation, you read books written by apostate Jehovah's Witnesses that caused you to become outraged against the Watchtower. But in all probability, the local elders were not at all acquainted with the issues raised by ex-JW's, and so they were not prepared to be put on the spot to answer for the Watchtower's shortcomings. Hopefully, in hindsight you will humbly recognize that you could have handled that situation better than you did.

You might find some encouragement from the apostle Paul. He was once an avowed enemy of the truth, but he came to his senses and became a Christian. However, even after his miraculous conversion the brothers were distrustful of Paul because of his reputation as a persecutor. Acts 9:26 relates that when Paul came to Jerusalem he tried to join the brothers there "but they were all afraid of him, because they did not believe he was a disciple." But, eventually Paul won their trust and respect.

While it is commendable that you have mustered the courage to return to the faith, no doubt in your case it will take some time for you to win back the trust and confidence of the brothers and sisters in your congregation. Please be patient with the elders. Be forgiving of the friends. Accept personal responsibility for the situation you are in and try not to blame others. Try to look at things from their point of view. Accept these difficulties you are now facing as discipline from Jehovah. And above all: trust God to smooth out your path, as the Bible words it, so that you might ultimately attain the peace that you seek.

Okay, So let's say a hearing impaired person can't read English. Why, then, would they be surfing the web and clicking on the WT's website in the first place? Is the WT hoping to catch to odd hearing impaired person who just sort of has a hunch that maybe, just maybe, the WT might post a video for the hearing impaired one day. And of all days, today is the day! And of all the icons on the WT's home page, which they can't read, the WT is hoping that they just happen to click on the link that takes them to the hearing impaired video. I am more baffled now than before as to why the WT would go to the trouble of posting a video on the WWW of a half dozen sign languages, of such a seemingly important tract, for hearing impaired persons only, when the odds are slim that very few hearing impaired persons will even find it. It seems absurd-- ridiculous. Maybe they intend to add the actual printed version of the tract later. Let's hope, for their sake.

Badwatchman has apparently forgotten that JWs go preaching to people to reach them about the good news of the Kingdom and have established sign language congregations. There are many return visits and bible studies with the hearing impaired, not to mention those called on in the door to door work. No doubt many hearing impaired persons have been directed to the watchtower site to see the video. Badwatchman shows his lack of insight by thinking that JWs are relying on hearing impaired persons to run across the video by mere chance only.

I wish goodwatchman could help badwatchman to regain his spiritual balance. He has totally lost it and has become what goodwatchman called "scandal-mongers and fault-finders and working as partners with our many enemies to subvert our faith."

Badwatchman,

Your comment could have been resumed in a polite question - How can the earing impaired find the link to the sign language video's on the WT site if they cannot read?

But instead of wanting an answer to a question you did not know the answer, you jumped to conclusions. Unfortunately, the web and the world are filled with people like you with the "shoot first" mentality.

Badwatchman said: I am more baffled now than before as to why the WT would go to the trouble of posting a video on the WWW of a half dozen sign languages, of such a seemingly important tract, for hearing impaired persons only, when the odds are slim that very few hearing impaired persons will even find it.

You're talking out of your backside about something you know nothing about as usual! You have no idea how the deaf use the internet. You have no idea how the growing number of deaf congregations and groups use the WT's resources. You have no idea how the brothers are being directed to use the website.

Do you really think the brothers didn't think this one through? Do you really think they didn't have a purpose in mind? Do you really think it wasn't part of a greater plan? They are not stupid. You, on the other hand...

You aren't in a position to know anything, and quite frankly that is why what you say is always so daft. Yet you have this incredible faith in your own ignorant guesses. You make stuff up and believe it yourself. It is always something that amazes me about you.

I am more baffled now than before as to why the stupidity of e-Watchman ever made any sense to me.

Why don't you go back to stealing things written by Watchtower Society. They're they only good arguments you ever had.

Someone at EW's site said:

Yesterday in the Local Needs section of the Service Meeting there was a talk on the importance of Field Service Reports. Several scriptures were mentioned. One was about Gideon and his 300 men. Another was about the angel who struck down 185000 Assyrians at one time. The speaker stated that the fact God provided exact numbers like 300 of Gideon's men or 185000 who were struck down show God is interested in accurate numbers and statistics. He then applied this analogy to field service reports where exact numbers and statistics such as number of hours spent in field service is required. ....

What do you all think? Do you feel the above mentioned talk was corect regarding what it said regarding Field Service Reports? I would like to hear your opinions.

What say you goodwatchman and badwatchman?

The Gideon account didn't have anything to do with field service or christian activity and the Assyrian death toll is probably not an exact number anyway. More than likley 185,000 is rounded off.

However, other Bible accounts are more directly related to "field service." For example, regarding the attendance of the Lord'sSermon on the Mount the Bible account says: "Yet those eating were about five thousand men, besides women and young children."

Can you imagine the uproar among the elder body if the attendants rounded the meeting attendance off to "about 50 brothers, besides women & children?" But, hey, they would be following a Bible example of head counting, right?

Acts 2:41 reports the number of baptisms. "Therefore those who embraced his word heartily were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added." Can you imagine the speaker at a convention announcing that about 100 persons had been baptized?

Acts 4:4 similarly records "about 5,000" men were in attendance to hear a speech by one of the apostles. So much for exact numbers.

The fact the Bible does not mention the number of hours any particular minister spent in their ministry speaks volumes as to Jehovah's thinking on the matter.

Where in the Bible does anyone count their time in preaching on a slip of paper and are assigned record cards of activity, determining this as a "gauge to their spirituality"? Where in the Bible are Pioneers, Auxiliary Pioneers, District Overseers, Circuit Overseers, Bethelites, and Kingdom Halls?


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Considering that all Christian denominations today practice things that would have been foreign to the 1st Century Christians, this is more a question of nit-picking and fault-finding in the way Jehovah's Witnesses operate on an organizational level than a search for truth or whether we carry out matters in a Bible-based manner. For example, 1st Century Christians didn't even possess personal copies of the Scriptures, which at that time were contained in dozens of unwieldy individual scrolls and letters that were copied and circulated among the congregations. Also, the early Christians met in private homes and in public places. There were no churches, no cathedrals, and no kingdom halls. As proof of that, consider Paul's greeting at Colossians 4:15 to a woman named "Nympha and to the congregation at her house." Incidentally, besides meeting at our kingdom halls, Jehovah's Witnesses also regularly meet in small groups in private homes—like the early Christians.

As for the organizational structure of the early Christian church, at Ephesians 4:11 Paul wrote that God provided the congregations with various gifts in the form of men; "some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers." While all Christians are called upon to make a public declaration of their faith, some early Christians were outstanding preachers. Phillip, for example, was called "the evangelizer." The so-called pioneers among Jehovah's Witnesses are also referred to as full-time evangelizers because they spend a significant amount of time in their ministry.

Circuit overseers and district overseers today are following the pattern of the apostle Paul and Barnabas, in that the apostle and his companions traveled in a circuit, visiting and revisiting brothers and congregations and writing letters of encouragement and instruction. For that matter, Mark 6:6 reports that Jesus also "went round about to the villages in a circuit, teaching." One function of our modern CO (Circuit Overseer) is when he makes his semi-annual visit to each congregation; he not only teaches, but discusses the spiritual qualifications of any prospective elders in consideration of appointing them to an office. At Titus 1:5, Paul instructed Titus to do that very thing on the Island of Crete. It reads: "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders."

Jehovah's Witnesses have in many respects copied the model and methods of the original Christians. The actual organizationally-assigned names of various positions of responsibility may not be found in the record preserved in the Greek Scriptures, but the positions of responsibility can be found therein. The naming is merely a convention, exercised by all denominations.

Concerning the recording of time spent in the ministry and there being kept a "card of activity," while there isn't an actual incident of this in the Bible, neither is there a prohibition of such; simply put: the Bible is silent on the matter, either way.

Goodwatchman, thanks for correcting Badwatchman. But I am wondering just where were you when everyone including badwatchman was chiming in against JWs on this matter on that thread entitled: Field Service Reports? Your comment above is only found in the mailbag question and answers.


You were silent on that thread and let badwatchman lead everyone down a Korah-like fault finding trail. Why? I am wondering just what your motives are?

Maybe the contents of the mailbag question were stolen from somewhere else. I suggest checking the WT CD-ROM. It might have been another change-the-words-around-and-hope-no-one-notices trick again.

ROTFL....

good one Al...

Very funny. Its hard to believe the same person wrote both comments.

QUOTE(dgibson\";p=\"6167)
The witch hunt has begun, world wide this time, not just at the headquarters like back in the 80's with RF.


That's great. Instead of WWW standing for World-Wide Work, it ought to be World-Wide Witch-hunt....................

It is just really, really sad that elders have allowed themselves to be turned into the Society's little Taliban. There is no question but the elders were acting upon orders from headquarters to sniff out all inactive JWs and try to talk them into disassociating themselves. That's the new theocratic strategy now, you know.........

The elders seem to be making an effort to visit all in the congregation in order to "encourage them", but it seems that they are asking many leading questions to draw out those who do not agree with all the teachings of the organization. Is this happening in other congregations?

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I am not aware of any organization-wide inquisition or crackdown on dissents, or anything resembling what you describe.

The Holy Prophet of Michigan said: There is no question but the elders were acting upon orders from headquarters to sniff out all inactive JWs and try to talk them into disassociating themselves. That's the new theocratic strategy now, you know

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Its this I-think-I'm-So-Clever stupidity like that makes me just want to reel. The crazy paranoia of it. The absurdity of it. The stupidity of the fact he actually thinks hes clever for working his sad little theory all out. The incredibleness of the way his mindless supporters will all - no doubt - be thinking "wow what a good point - I agree with that!"

I have friends who are inactive. I have elders who are close friends. Would my friends, the elders, go to my other friends, who are inactive, and say "hey, why not disassociate yourself?'. No, because there is no such "witch-hunt" and because they're not retarded.

I mean, really! Have you ever heard of such nonsense? Every year the elders are instructed to try and reach out to inactive ones, the same applies to those DF'ed and may be favourable to returning. You can easily find articles in the WT on this subject directing the elders to act. Recently there seems to have been - at least it seems to me - an increased effort to encourange inactive ones to become active again. Why would the brothers want it any other way? Hmm?

The man's speculations about situations he knows little or nothing about (all of which make him appear oh-so clever and oh-SO righteous, you may have noticed) are really becoming very comical. Everything he says comes out of his backside now -- and some of the sounds it makes can really make you chuckle.

"elders were acting upon orders from headquarters to sniff out all inactive JWs and try to talk them into disassociating themselves"

Just when you think Robert King has run out of gas, he can tighten his fists, bend over, and musters up one great big fart.

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AL, What is incredible about it all is that while badwatchman has the inside scoop on the new theocratic stategy to get inactive ones to DA themselves, goodwatchman knows of no such organizational crackdown or inquisition.

I know first hand how welcome "inactive" ones are when they come back... and what the official policy is in regards to reaching out to them.

What E-Watchmen said about this is one of the most ridiculous things he's ever said...right up there with the tree in Daniel 4 comment he made recently, or the "Jesus is Jehovah's name" comment by TK...

but apparently what opinion he will have, depends on who he's trying to "pander" to on any given day.

Isn't is curious that almost every time EW writes something at his DB it contradicts something he wrote before. Makes you go, HMMMMMMM. And it makes you do this

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Where did GW go anyway? Is he still around, imprisoned somewhere?

I remember when BW announced that he would appeal the judicial committee's decision. I thought then that it’s a shame he’s just wasting everybody’s time.

I think GW is falling further and further back into BW's subconscious mind. Its like Psycho.

" Should we publicly advertise the perceived shortcomings of the WTS & JWs? "

To answer the original question, if the answer is YES, then by all means we should publicly advertise the perceived shortcomings of all then, starting with Robert King, Timothy Kline and the rest of their followers. I'm game--I wonder who would really have a longer list.

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