Hi all,

Back in the day, when many of us thought e-Watchman wasn't an apostate, but thought that he may, in fact, actually be supported by Jehovah (LOL), there were a few essays of his and teachings which genuinely impressed me.

You may know what I'm talking about – those really deep essays into obscure Bible prophecies. How he seemed to brilliantly apply their real meaning, including their meaning for us today. Things you may have never previously considered suddenly hit you. Scriptural gems you had never before noticed are uncovered.

Wow. How brilliant e-Watchman really is. How the Holy Spirit must operate upon him. How insightful he is and how much knowledge he has of the scriptures! Truly, we are in awe at the brilliance of God's Watchman.

Or so it seemed.

You see, soon we discovered that his main, biggest, and most important ideas had been stolen from a cult called Living Waters. Some teachings were copied nearly word-for-word from the writings of a crazy man who thinks he is the Messiah (or equal to the Messiah - reports conflict).

Most of us here are well aware of this. However, not everything was taken from Living Waters.

Here are some of the teachings of e-Watchman which most impressed me for their marvellous insight into God's word.

Israel's neighbours representing Christendom

In a spiritual sense, Christendom is represented in prophecy as countries such as Edom, Moab, etc. Why? The brilliant e-Watchman explained that Moab, for example, was a blood relation of Israel - as both nations descended from Terah, Abraham's father.

Therefore, in prophecy Moab is like Christendom - our brother, the spiritual "brother" of Jehovah's Witnesses. For we both descended from the same "Father", the 1st Century Christian Congregation. Therefore, in prophecy, Israel = JWs; Moab = Christendom.

Wow. An amazing piece of scriptural truth, that really impressed me. A lot! So much so that I wrote an entire essay on the subject, which other Watchmanites similarly viewed as brilliant. How Jehovah truly is blessing e-Watchman with such spiritual insight!

Well, that's what I thought, until I realised that the entire interpretation had been lifted straight out of the Watchtower publications!

For example:

In Isaiah's Prophecy – Light For All Mankind on pages 194 and 195:

Today there is a worldwide organization similar to ancient Moab. It is Christendom, the principle part of "Babylon the Great." (Rev 17:5) Both Moab and Israel descended from Abraham's father, Terah. Similarly, Christendom, like the congregation of anointed Christians today, claims to have roots in the first-century Christian congregation. (Gal 6:16) However, Christendom – like Moab – is corrupt, promoting spiritual immorality and the worship of gods other than the one true God, Jehovah. (James 4:4; 1 John 5:21) As a class, Christendom's leaders oppose those who preach the good news of the Kingdom.—Matt 24:9, 14

Moab was eventually silenced. The same will happen to Christendom. Jehovah, using a modern-day equivalent of Assyria, will cause her to be desolated. (Rev 17:16, 17) However, there is hope for people in this modern-day "Moab."

So the teaching I and others at the "Paradise" Café were stupid enough to think originated with the brilliant "prophet" – was really just a rehash of something the Watchtower had said already.

Of course, what may strike you is that this contradicts EW's own theology - for he admits that Christendom has its roots in the 1st Century Congregation -- something he denies usually! More double-speak from the holy prophet, I guess.

What is interesting is how Isaiah applies this prophecy of Moab's destruction to the time when throne of David is firmly established - i.e. while Jesus is reigning as King in heaven. While Isa 16:13, 14 it says Moab will be disgraced in just a few years, beforehand in verse 5 it mentions David's throne being established. The WT explains:

In the midst of prophesying against Moab, Isaiah says: "In loving-kindness a throne will certainly be firmly established; and one must sit down upon it in trueness in the tent of David, judging and seeking justice and being prompt in righteousness." (Isa 16:5) In 1914, Jehovah firmly established the throne of Jesus, a Ruler in the line of King David. Jesus' kingship is an expression of Jehovah's loving-kindness and, in fulfillment of God's covenant with King David, will last forever. (Ps 72:2; 85:10, 11; 89:3, 4; Luke 1:32) Many meek ones have left modern-day "Moab" and have submitted themselves to Jesus in order to gain life. (Rev 18:4) How comforting for these to know that Jesus will 'make clear to the nations what justice is'! —Matt 12:18; Jer 33:15

Yes so this prophecy can really be applied to the time when Jesus is enthroned as King. Israel = the Israel of God (the anointed); Moab = Christendom.

Wow - so not only is EW's interpretation copied, but in my opinion, it is an inferior copy to the Watchtower's original un-altered version

The cities in Egypt worshipping Jehovah are JWs in modern times

Another amazing explanation that had me in awe. In Isaiah it is stated (in part) that “In that day there will prove to be five cities in the land of Egypt speaking the language of Canaan and swearing to Jehovah of armies. ... there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary. ...a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt... Jehovah will certainly become known to the Egyptians; and the Egyptians must know Jehovah in that day...”

How perplexing! What a strange prophecy! But, don’t worry, for God’s holy Watchman - the prophet of Michigan - is on hand to explain it all. Brilliantly he explains how the five cities speaking Canaanite languages are Jehovah’s modern day people living in the modern world - Egypt - which especially represents the good ‘ole US of A!

Wow - what an amazing application of prophecy. The Watchman of Jehovah has peered into God’s word, and the Holy Spirit has illuminated the Truth. How privileged we all are! Surely, this man is from God.

Well maybe, if it wasn’t for the fact that this too, was simply an idea he got from Watchtower publications.

Looking again at the Isaiah’s Prophecy book, on pages 204 and 205 it says:

What is the surprising result of this proclamation work? “In that day there will prove to be five cities in the land of Egypt speaking the language of Canaan and swearing to Jehovah of armies. The City of Tearing Down will one city be called.” (Isa 19:18 ) In ancient times this prophecy was apparently fulfilled when the Hebrew language was spoken in Egyptian cities by Jews who had fled there. (Jer 24:1, 8-10; 41:1-3; 42:9-43:7; 44:1) Today, there are people in the territory of modern-day “Egypt” who have learned to speak the “pure language” of Bible truth. (Zeph 3:9) One of the five figurative cities is called “The City of Tearing Down,” signifying that part of the “pure language” is related to exposing and “tearing down” Satan’s organization.

Thanks to the proclamation work of Jehovah’s people, his great name will certainly become known in this system of things. “In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary.” (Isa 19:19) These words point to the position of anointed Christians, who are in a covenant relationship with God. (Ps 50:5) As “an altar” they are offering their sacrifices; as “a pillar and support of the truth,” they are bearing witness to Jehovah. (1 Tim 3:15; Ro 12:1; Heb 13:15,16) They are “in the midst of the land,” being found – along with their “other sheep” companions – in more than 230 countries and islands of the sea. But they are “no part of the world.” (John 10:16; 17:15,16) They are, as it were, standing on the boundary between this world and the Kingdom of God, prepared to cross that boundary and receive their heavenly reward.

Isaiah continues: “And it must prove to be for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a savior, even a grand one, who will actually deliver them.” (Isa 19:20) As “a sign” and “a witness,” the anointed take the lead in the preaching work and exalt Jehovah’s name in this system of things. (Isa 8:18; Heb 2:13) Throughout the world the cries of oppressed people can be heard, but by and large, human governments are unable to help them. However, Jehovah will send a Grand Savior, the King Jesus Christ, to liberate all the meek ones. When these last days reach their climax at the war of Armageddon, he will bring relief and everlasting blessings to God-fearing humans. –Ps 72:2, 4, 7, 12-14

In the meantime, it is God’s will that all sorts of people gain accurate knowledge and be saved. (1 Tim 2:4) Hence, Isaiah writes: “Jehovah will certainly become known to the Egyptians; and the Egyptians must know Jehovah in that day, and they must render sacrifice and gift and must make a vow to Jehovah and pay it. And Jehovah will certainly deal Egypt a blow. There will be a dealing of a blow and a healing; and they must return to Jehovah, and he must let himself be entreated by them and must heal them.” (Isa 19:21, 22) People from all nations of Satan’s word, individual “Egyptians,” come to know Jehovah and render him sacrifice, “the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name.” (Heb 13:15) They make a vow to Jehovah by dedicating themselves to him, and they pay their vow by living a life of loyal service. Following the “blow” that Jehovah will deal this system of things at Armageddon, he will use his Kingdom to heal humankind. During Jesus’ Millennial Reign, mankind will be elevated to spiritual, mental, moral, and physical perfection – healing indeed! –Rev 22:1,2

In the above paragraph, some adherents of the Future Judgment View may think the “blow” to Egypt is the destruction of the Watchtower Society. But the blow is to Egypt itself, not the 5 cities. Those cities will be sent a deliverer, a savior, as the scripture foretells. This passage does not support EW’s theology at all.

e-Watchman’s version of this interpretation is quite bad. He simply takes the Watchtower’s explanation and tacks a few of his own silly ideas onto it, such as the prophecy being about the United States and the location of Bethel in New York being foretold. It sounds almost comical.

Now, perhaps you think this is all obvious. Perhaps you long ago knew that EW didn’t get these ideas himself. But for whatever reason, I didn’t fully realize this. I really thought it was 90% him. I thought it was his brilliance which brought out these scriptural points -- not because he took them out of Watchtower literature and tacked a few daft ideas onto the end.

Now let’s consider one final interpretation I thought was due to EW’s brilliance. You may have already known this wasn’t his original idea, but I didn’t.

Kings of the North and South; North = Totalitarian; South = Democratic

EW’s interpretation of the Kings of the North and South centers around the idea that the Northern Kings represent oppressive (oligarchy?) governments, while the Southern Kings represent rule by the people.

Well, again this is from the Watchtower. For example, page 207 in the Isaiah’s Prophecy book makes mention of it. Some of these nations are like Assyria, heavily militaristic. Other nations are more liberal, perhaps like Egypt – at one time “the king of the south” in Daniel’s prophecy.

Its just a quick mention of it, but the fact is EW didn’t get the idea from his own mind - nor from Holy Spirit. He took it from the Watchtower publications.

Yet again.

Now, you may have known all this already, but I didn’t. Perhaps if I had spent the right amount of time preparing for the book study, preparing for all the meetings, and associating with fellow believers, I would have realized these things and never originated from the “brilliant” writings of e-Watchman!

So there is a lesson for me. I should have taken the Faithful and Discreet Slave's advice and prepared for all the meetings. Perhaps then I wouldn't have been so easily taken in by this "brother sitting at the back of the hall" from Michigan who thinks's he's a prophet of God. (How could I have been so foolish?)

I wonder how many more teachings of EW which I thought were “amazing” will turn out to mere copies - yet again. If not from conspiracy theory websites, from the Living Water's cult, from other apostate websites, or from Watchtower publications.

Is anything on e-Watchman original?

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very interesting...that's a good question Al...if anything of his is original...It makes me feel like I should've seen through it from the first time I saw it.....

isn't it interesting that the seemingly rhetorical and tired sounding repetitive advice the society has ALWAYS said is what protects us from falling prey to these types of sect promoting apostates that try to twist everything they can. ..PERSONAL STUDY ... then we recognize where the teachings are being twisted... PRAYER...to keep us properly motivated and connected to Jehovah...and MEETING ATTENDANCE...helps us be accountable to one another and connected through love and upbuilding association....

It actually really IS/ WAS the recipe for spiritual health ...

..it has been all along..

...and the deeper and more detailed prophetic applications are more easily twisted by would-be "Messiah/Prophets Sect Leaders" like Burney and King....

...and are easily undone by the less detailed and more difficult to twist scriptural prophecies and principles. As we have had plenty of examples of through this whole process.

At least his plagiarism has been overshadowed by his egotism....and thus has been self-imploding as far as sect promoting goes...

Real truth is always the only sustainable view. Given time it always works out

interesting how it always goes that way...

King would have been wise to acknowledge where he recieved information rather than trying to pretend that it was Jehovah removing scales from his eyes and being born again. This shows his lack of humility in wanting to take credit for what others conceived. Notice this stark difference between Robert King and Charles Taze Russell. Russell said:

“The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren (George Stetson & George Storrs) led, step by step, into greener pastures.” ...

Our work . . . has been to bring together these long scattered fragments of truth and present them to the Lord’s people—not as new, not as our own, but as the Lord’s. . . . We must disclaim any credit even for the finding and rearrangement of the jewels of truth.” ....

“The work in which the Lord has been pleased to use our humble talents has been less a work of origination than of reconstruction, adjustment, harmonization.”



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interesting post 3W...even the difference in the spirit of the personalities is obvious....the approach and attitude generally ...

the more we look at these things the more I'm amazed and ashamed that I ever didn't completely see through EW and all things related...

Does anyone know where the inspired watchman learned about the NGO issue? Could it be JWD?

that's a good question Diogenes...I think he must have found out on the internet like real soon after the Guardian article...because the first time I saw his web-site it was a mail-bag question sort of thing and had 4 mos of archives. He had a lot to say about the NGO thing back then. And I gather from what others have said that he was a sort of fixture on other internet DB's and was "known" so to speak in the internet culture before his mail-bag...so no doubt he got most of his info from the highly reliable internet apostate information system...(aka manufactured rumor mill)

I was just thinking how good the prophetic parallel with Moab to Christendom really is.

Jerusalem represents Christendom in prophecy. Moab does too. Why two parallels? Surely if Moab represents Christendom, then Jerusalem must represent Jehovah's Witnesses?

Apostate Jerusalem was God's people who turned apostate. Likewise, the 1st century congregation also turned apostate. So apostate Jerusalem is a fitting parallel to Christendom.

But what of Moab?

Moab was related to Jerusalem as she came from the same lineage. Moab was, in effect, Jerusalem's "brother" who persecuted her. Likewise, Jehovah's Witnesses are related to Christendom as we stemmed from the same lineage - the 1st century congregation. Thus Moab can be equalled to Christendom too.

So we have two prophetic examples pointing to Christendom:

Apostate Jerusalem (god's people turned apostate) = Christendom
Moab (persecutors of god's people) = Christendom

So who represents Jehovah's Witnesses? At that time in history, there was no large group of true worshippers. Both Jerusalem and Moab worshipped false idols.

However, there was a small remnant of faithful ones such as Jeremiah and a few others. They were enemies of both apostate Jerusalem and their "brother" Moab. Today JWs have a work like that of Jeremiah - while being enemies of god's people turned apostate, who is also our "brother" -- Christendom.

A parallel which could also applied in the 1st century

Before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the 1st century christians could have drawn a similar parallel. The apostate Jerusalem before 607BCE could parallel the apostate Jerusalem before 70CE. They were worshippers of Jehovah who had turned apostate (again). Likewise, Moab also found fulfillment here. Jerusalem is the "brother" of the 1st Century Congregation - its roots being in the same place. When the Jews persecuted the Christians, they proved to be like both their apostate ancestors and like their "brother" Moab. They persecuted the Christians just as the Moabites used to persecute them.

Jerusalem before 607 (apostate worship of Jehovah) = 1st century Jerusalem
Moab (persecutors of true worshippers) = 1st century Jerusalem

At the end of this system, however, a "great crowd" is to survive the destruction of unfaithful Christendom (spiritual apostate Jerusalem and Moab) and the rest of Satan's world. And unlike at 607 BCE, when the Babylonian King usurped Jehovah's throne, instead true worship will be vindicated, God's Kingdom will be established, crushing and put an end to all the other Kingdoms.

So both apostate Jerusalem and the nation of Moab are both apt parallels to Christendom today. Christendom is both the persecutor of Jehovah's chosen ones (the anointed) and at the same time is the center of apostate worship, misrepresenting the scriptures, dishonouring Jesus and his Father. Like God's people of old they started out on a righteous course, but soon turned to idols, paganism, and traditions of men.

Soon the modern-day equivalent of apostate Jerualem and Moab will meet her demise and true worship will be vindicated.

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Excellent points. Different illustrations or parallels can't be combined into one. Some try to fuse Christ's illustrations into one also. Someone once asked:

Since Christ is returning from the wedding in Luke 12 and since his bride is the anointed how can the slaves who welcome his arrival home also be the anointed?

The problem is that many are trying to combine different illustrations all together into one illustration. The anointed are illustrated in many different ways: A bride, slaves, brothers of Christ, sons of God, guests of the marriage feast, virgins, etc.

Notice this illustration for example. Matt 22: 1 "In further reply Jesus again spoke to them with illustrations, saying: 2 “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. 3 And he sent forth his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, ....

Obviously in this illustration the chosen anointed are likened to persons attending the wedding feast, not to the bride.

And likewise in the illustration that Jesus used in Luke 12, it is not the bride who pictures the anointed but rather those slaves that await the arrival of the master.

So unfaithful Jerusalem and Moab. They picture different aspects of the apostate enemies of faithful Jerusalem.

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I remember reading a post by Watchman when he was you know where he had found out about the NGO thing and he made some kind of comment like: I hope the angels can help keep my mouth shut about this so as to not lay bare the faults of my brothers. That is not an exact quote but it was something like that.

I guess the angels were not strong enough. One angel can kill 185,000 men overnight but myriads and myriads of angels can't shut the mouth of Robert King.

JL, if you are there, do you have that comment from you know.

3W said: So [with] unfaithful Jerusalem and Moab. They picture different aspects of the apostate enemies of faithful Jerusalem.

Exactly. There are many different parallels, illustrations, etc, referring to different aspects.

Combining them into one would cause nothing but contradictions. I guess that is where most of EW's straw-men come from - he combines the different WT interpretations of Jesus' parables, which obivously aren't to be combined, then shouts "double speak!"

I remember reading a post by Watchman when he was you know where he had found out about the NGO thing and he made some kind of comment like: I hope the angels can help keep my mouth shut about this so as to not lay bare the faults of my brothers.

Hmmm I remember something like that too.

I remember alot being made of the Edom Ammon and Moab parallels by EW...Thanks for recalling and addressing all that in one of your above posts Al...I am almost tempted to go back and figure out just how and where he was twisting that whole thing but I don't have the time or the stomach to, if I had the time...

3W said.. "..Combining them into one would cause nothing but contradictions. I guess that is where most of EW's straw-men come from - he combines the different WT interpretations of Jesus' parables, which obivously aren't to be combined, then shouts "double speak!"

that is exactly what he is in the habit of doing...reviewing
Al's above post, about both Moab and Jerusalem paralleling Christendom,.. is an excellent example of how EW does just that...His mode of creating apparent contradiction out of thin air is really not very hard to uncover if one looks beneath the surface of his claims...

That's right (btw agrarian, the quote is from me not 3W ).

Whenever e-Watchman talks about a contradiction in WT interpretations, it is actually one of his own making.

LOL...sorry Al....I see that now...

I began to notice how he creates his "contradictions" when reading the essay he wrote about "the Challege" .... we had encountered several key instances on very important subjects, and I think 3W has on one of his blog entries an example of how he did a similar thing.

It's things like that that make me suspiciious about him. Does he know he's doing it? Is it intentional? Just to enhance his theory?...if so then how he remains "deluded" is even more of a mystery...

like the title of this thread suggests his methods are more than suspect...the biblical use of the word "twists" is a very appropriate way to describe what he's doing. I think anyone that does that sort of thing and has their own self believing their own twistings has some very deep-seeded problems. The kind that would be very difficult to fix....

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Here it is:

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/11/robert-king-exposes-wts-interpretation.html

"If you actually look up the May 15, 1977 WT that Mr. King quotes in his blog you will find that it is not an interpretation of the WT for Isaiah 25 at all as he would lead you to believe. No, it is instead an interpretation of Ezekiel chapter 31.

It seems Mr. King is now resorting to using the straw man routine to discredit the WTS. He is attempting to mislead people by ascribing an interpretation to the WT on a certain scripture that they have really not put forth in order for him to then discredit them for that 'bizarre and blasphemous' interpretation. But in using such sly trickery and deceit he is really only calling his own credibility into question."