Don Cameron is a sly one with only one agenda: To lead unwary ones away from God's organization. He has written a book entitled, Captives of a Concept to aid in furthering his agenda. But the truth is that Don Cameron has written a book based on a faulty premise and an examination of what he has written will in reality show from his own writings that he is really a captive of his own misconcepts.

Don Cameron's writings will be in red.

Don Cameron wrote:
3/16/08
Today's Watchtower Study article begins on page 24 with the Governing Body's interpretation of the most important Scripture in their theology. This is where their claimed divinely appointed authority comes from:

"When Christ inspected the (Society) in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus was PLEASED thereafter to APPOINT THEM OVER ALL HIS BELONGINGS.-Read Matthew 24:45-47.

Right from the outset Don Cameron perpetrates a misleading falsehood. He is in error. The scripture at Matt 24:45-47 is NOT the most important teaching in JWs' theology. You might recognize this claim as a page right out of the book of the Danny Haszard himself, whose erie obsession of attempting to discredit JWs has no bounds as he continuosly copies and pastes this same claim over and over again.

But the Nov 1, 1993 WT clearly shows them to be in error. Here it states:

"Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching—who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one?"

Yes the most important teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses is self explanatory since it is contained in the very name of the organization. The most important teaching being: Who is God?

The fact is that whether or not the faithful and discreet slave found among Jehovah's Witnesses was appointed 'over all his belongings' or not really has no bearing on the authority of God's organization or the faithful and discreet slave. We will prove this beyond a doubt and show that Don Cameron has faulty reasoning indeed and that his book does not belong in anyone's theocratic library but rather in the garbage can right next to the used toilet paper.

QUESTION: If Jesus did inspect what they had been teaching down till that time, would he have been "pleased" with the Society?

The only way to even have a chance of knowing the answer to that question is to MAKE THE SAME EXAMINATION THEY SAY JESUS MADE.

The one mistake all Jehovah's Witnesses have made is that THEY FAILED TO MAKE SUCH AN EXAMINATION BEFORE THEY GOT BAPTIZED. They are still making that mistake today. And all those who become Witnesses in the future will make this same mistake.

...I discovered that from about 1876 to 1918-1919 the Society had provided literally THOUSANDS of portions of WRONG spiritual food at the WRONG time that they had served literally MILLIONS of times in their literature!

If the Society did not pass Jesus' exam then they would not have received the Matthew 24:47 appointment. If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008.

When Jesus inspected the religions claiming to be his temple shortly after 1914 what did he find?

Of all the major so called Christian religions of the world that were supposed to represent him he found the following:

1. They had supported and encouraged their young men to kill one another during The Great War, even praying to God for his blessings upon the troops as they slaughtered one another.

2. They had misidentified him and his Father by misrepresenting them as a paganistic Triune God.

3. They had failed to sanctify his Father's name but instead removed His name from their Bibles and viewed His name as of little importance.

4. They had dishonored him by teaching that he was a sadistic God who would eternally torment the wicked in the fires of hell or purgatory, another belief borrowed from the pagans.

5. They had failed to promote God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind instead promoting their nationalistic govenments in its place.

6. They had set up a paid clergy class that were to do the preaching thus making void Jesus' command for all his disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom.

But wait, there was one group who did not do these things. There was one group who was teaching that God's name was Jehovah and that the sanctification of His name was of utmost importance. That Jehovah was not Jesus nor a paganistic triune God and that there was no hellfire. This group did not join the nations in promoting their own governments over God's kingdom by killing their fellow man in the bloody war raging at that time, but instead preached that God's kingdom was mankind’s only hope and that it would restore paradise to the earth.

Of course they did not understand all things correctly but that was to be understood since they were trying to break free of the strongly entrenched pagan doctrines that Christendom had adopted thru the centuries.

This group also had the potential for spreading the Kingdom message throughout the earth. Already this group had made great strides in doing so.

One man in this group was Charles Taze Russell. His sermons printed in the newspaper are estimated to have had 12 million to 15 million readers in the US. One source said that he had become the most famous minister in the world at this time. His advertisement of free seats and no collection often angered the clergy because it would cause them to be questioned by their members and lose money.

The message he was bringing forth was so widespread that in 1908 his publications were the 3rd widely distributed publication only surpassed by of course the Bible and also the Chinese Almanac.

Even an enemy of C.T. Russell once declared that his writings had a "greater circulation every week than those of any other living man; a greater, doubtless, than the combined circulation of the writings of all the priests and preachers in North America..."

The voluntary distribution of religious literature in tract form grew until an annual distribution of approximately fifty million free tracts, in thirty languages, was reached, greater than that of all denominations and religious bodies in the world combined at the time.

Brother Russell's personal ministry beat all worlds records; the Pilgrim visitation likewise broke all records; so did the free tract distribution, the Photo drama, and the local ministry throughout the world.

Which group do you think Jesus would choose to do the great preaching of the good news of the kingdom that needed to be done to fulfill the prophecies? Who would you have chosen if you were Jesus? Would you choose Christendom who could not even correctly identify you and your Father, who gave no importance to your Father's name, who dishonored your Father by teaching the paganistic hellfire and purgatory and the trinity, and sanctioned the shedding of blood promoting nationalism over God's kingdom not even knowing what God's kingdom was?

Or this group that identified your Father as being Jehovah thus following your example when you said,’ I have made your name known and will make it known'. This group that showed from the Bible that Jehovah is not a triune God, and not a sadistic tormentor of souls. This group that correctly identified you as God's son who sacrificed your life as a perfect man. This group that refused to promote nationalism and kill fellow man because they were of a different race or nationality and who recognized and preached God's kingdom as the only hope? This group who had demonstrated the potential to preach the truth about God, Jesus, and God's Kingdom worldwide in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14?

So who really is the faithful and discreet slave? Where can the slave class be found?

All one has to do is ask a few simple questions: Who has been instrumental in helping us to learn the marvelous truths of the Bible about God’s name, the trinity, hellfire, paradise earth, God’s kingdom, and so on? Who is currently preaching the good news of the Kingdom throughout the earth following the example of Jesus and the first century Christians? Who has been used by Jehovah in building a worldwide and united brotherhood? Who has Jehovah used in providing us with so much spiritual food that it is difficult to even keep up with it all? When you have a Bible question, what publications do you turn to in order to find the answer?(Have you ever noticed that even apostates turn to the Insight book when wanting to find out certain facts about the Bible? Why? Because they have no better Bible source.)

It is quite apparent to all who are honest with themselves and others that the faithful and discreet slave is found only among the people known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Of course here was Don Cameron's reply to the above statements:
Don Cameron wrote:

But normally ... isn’t the time to pass an examination is when is given, not decades after the exam is over? And the Governing Body (not me) says Jesus’ food-at-the-proper-time examination was over in the spring of 1919..


Thats wonderful reasoning. And it would be a great point except for one thing: It contradicts the scriptural prophecies about the refining.

Dan 12:10: "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand."

Mal 3:2"“But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness."

As we see the claim is often made by opposers like Don Cameron that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Jehovah's organization directed by His holy spirit and His son because they have in the past made interpretations, pointed to certain dates, and taught teachings that were proven to be wrong or were later corrected. Jehovah's spirit is never wrong. Jesus is never wrong. Then how can it be that Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by Jehovah and Jesus?'Impossible!' opposers say.
But would anybody make the same argument about the seven congregations that John wrote letters to in the book of Revelation? Take a look at all their problems stated in the letters:

"you have left the love you had at first....

you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam,... to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication....

you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·la´us likewise...

you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel,... and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols....

I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead....

I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God....

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.

you say: "I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all," but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see."

Can't you just see Don Cameron standing there in the first century among the seven golden lampstands saying of the Christian congregation:

"WRONG spiritual food at the WRONG time" thus they cannot be God's people.

And even as Don Cameron is speaking what happens?

Revelation 1:12 "... saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,...20 As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations."

And then Don Cameron says: Jesus how can you be here walking among these people that have these wrong teachings of Nicholaus and Jezebel and Balaam?

According to the prophecy in Malachi, when Jesus came to examine the temple he would find that the temple class needed to be refined and cleansed. Notice Malachi 3:2, "For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness."

Question: Why would God's people need to be refined and cleansed? Surely God's organization would already be teaching all truths when Jesus arrived for inspection? While that is how some may reason that reasoning is not in harmony with the Bible prophecies.

When Jesus arrived for inspection he found many flaws thus the need for refining. This is backed up by other scriptures as well. For example in Revelation, John is transferred into the 'Lord's day'(Rev 1:10) and it is during the Lord's day that he decribes the condition of the congregations in the seven letters. As the letters show, there was a need for changes in the congregation of Christ. Time and again he tells them that changes are needed and such changes need to be made before destruction comes. One example of this is Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."

So you see, to believe that God's chosen ones would have all things right when he inspected the spiritual temple is incorrect. The Bible clearly shows that he would have a congregation of people and that congregation or organization of people would go thru a needed refining and cleansing during the Lord's day.

Just because Don Cameron thinks that God's people should have all teachings correct from the gitgo doesn't make it so. Cameron's argument is not with JWs. JWs do not believe that God's people would have all things correct when Jesus returned to his temple.

So if he wants to argue with JWs about how we had some inaccurate teachings that we have had to change, you'll get no argument. We all agree.

Cameron's argument is with Bible prophecy not with JWs.

So Opposers or critics of Jehovah's Witnesses, like Don Cameron, may feel inclined to make a long list of teachings that JWs have been wrong about or changed but what exactly have they really proven by doing this?

They have proven that the Bible is being fulfilled and that JWs are being refined and cleansed just as prophesied. And they have proven that Jesus really must be walking in the midst of Jehovah's Witnesses because of the many changes made that have brought them more in harmony with the teachings of Jesus. And they have proven that God's holy spirit really is directing his organization of Jehovah's Witnesses because they have continuously discarded Babylonish teachings and practices as directed by God's spirit. This is what we should expect from God's organization since it was prophesied that God's congregation would indeed have problems and flaws that would need correcting and that his organization would humbly submit to the necessary refining and cleansing.

In essence all the reasoning by critics and opposers about JWs having things wrong in the past are made invalid since the Bible clearly prophesied that when Jesus arrived and inspected his temple he would then refine and cleanse them because they needed to be refined and cleansed due to mistakes and wrong teachings. The seven letters to God's congregations in the Lord's day show that there would be problems that would need correcting. So digging up wrong statements by the WT fifty or a hundred years ago in hopes of discrediting JWs is really just a waste of time since the Bible prophecies are what count, not any human reasoning. Such reasoning by enemies of JWs is unscriptural. There is therefore no need to respond to past inaccurate teachings of JWs that are pointed out that have been corrected as part of the refining work done by Jesus to his organization.

Every time we see a list of the past inaccurate teachings of JWs, we can be happy that Jehovah has seen to it that those teachings and practices have been discarded and that Jehovah does indeed have an organization on earth that he is directing and refining and cleansing. Thank you all for reminding us of how Jehovah takes care of his organization by correcting them.

Diogenes made an excellent point when he said:

"If someone is looking to mine and refine gold what are the steps?

1. First you must find some gold bearing material.
This requires you to take several samples and assay them. When the results come back you will of course choose the mine that has the most gold bearing material.

2. Mine the gold.
This requires a lot of effort. One must dig, pick, shovel, and dynamite to retrieve the raw material.

3. Refine the gold.
This requires many many steps which include grinding the material, smelting the material, putting the material in solution, and then smelting again, till eventually you have .99999 percent real gold.

If you started with pure gold, then there would be no need to refine. However, the first requirement is that your raw material contains some gold to begin with."

And so where Don Cameron and chronies have made their mistake is that they failed to consider the prophecies. And in so doing they failed to see that their list of inaccuracies of JWs in days gone by, that they have indeed allowed Jehovah to correct, are only more proof that they are God's people rather than proving that they are not God's people. Not because of their mistakes and inaccurate teachings, but rather because they were willing to be corrected and refined and cleansed. NO other religion has been willing to allow God to refine them and discard the errors.

What about the fact Jesus would have noticed what the Society was teaching about the Trinity, hell, the condition of the dead, etc.? You have emphasized those kind of teachings several times as you feel the Society would have passed Jesus’ exam on such teachings.
But on page 622 of the “Proclaimers” book the Governing Body acknowledges that the Society was not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.
On page 622 of the Proclaimers book it acknowledges that Russell was not the only one who taught these things but it was just that he did a better job of publishing them than anyone else.
The point being that if those teachings would have passed an exam by Jesus they would have passed NO MATTER WHO WAS TEACHING THEM.


What a sly one Don Cameron is indeed. One simple question, where are those ones now teaching the truth and exposing the false doctrines such as the Trinity, hellfire, the unimportance of God's name, the Kingdom in your heart only, etc etc?

Please direct us to this faithful and discreet slave who are providing the food and conducting their worldwide preaching of this good news and all that it entails.

I posed this question for Don Cameron:

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is important and must be sanctified, and worldwide unity is a must for God's people, and nationalistic killing is condemned by God, and God's kingdom is not something in your heart but a real government that will restore earthly paradise, and Jesus did not sacrifice his life as a god/man but rather as a perfect man, then are Jehovah's Witnesses God's organization? If not then who is?

But time and time again he tried to avoid answering the question. Let me show you how he tried so hard to skirt the question and what his answer finally was.

Let me begin with my answer to your question,‘If the Society is not God’s organization, who is?’
My understanding at this point is that Jehovah is not dealing with mankind by means of an “organization.” If He has one I don’t know who it is yet. But as a result of my research I confidently feel that the Watchtower Society isn’t it.
Whereas Witnesses are able to excuse everything the Society was guilty of teaching from 1876 to 1919 because they believe that it is Jehovah’s organization, once I came to realize what the Society was guilty of teaching from 1876 to 1919 it convinced me that there is no possible way the Society could have passed that 1919 examination that they say Jesus gave them.
And therefore they would not have received the Matthew 24:47 appointment, and therefore the Society has never been or ever will be “Jehovah’s organization.”
I feel Ray Franz has some very helpful thoughts about an alternative to “God’s organization” in his “In Search of Christian Freedom.”
NEXT: Tomorrow: Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses all “speak in agreement(“unity of belief”) no matter where they live on earth?”
Don
P.S. The reason I used to excuse the Society's pre-1919 teachings was because (1) I didn't know what they were,(2)how bad they were, or (3) how many bad ones there were.
Chances are you too will be surprised if you ever allow yourself to discover all the weird things Russell and Rutherford taught from 1876 to 1919.


Don Cameron did not answer the question: If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is important and must be sanctified, and worldwide unity is a must for God's people, and nationalistic killing is condemned by God, and God's kingdom is not something in your heart but a real government that will restore earthly paradise, and Jesus did not sacrifice his life as a god/man but rather as a perfect man, then are Jehovah's Witnesses God's organization?

Are you scared to answer? Afraid that it will diminish your influence toward unsuspecting weak JWs?

The dialogue continued:
Don Cameron wrote:
once I came to realize what the Society was guilty of teaching from 1876 to 1919 it convinced me that there is no possible way the Society could have passed that 1919 examination that they say Jesus gave them.
And therefore they would not have received the Matthew 24:47 appointment, and therefore the Society has never been or ever will be “Jehovah’s organization.”


Really it should be just the opposite of what Don Cameron says. He should be saying: Once I came to realize what the Society taught from 1876 to 1919 and they made corrections of those inaccurate teachings, I was convinced even more so that they were God's organization. That is what the prophecies say.

So basically what you are saying is you disagree with Bible prophecy that God's people will need a refining and cleansing in the time of the end. And you disagree with John and what he wrote in Revelation concerning the congregations of God in the Lord's day and how they would need to make some corrections.

But I must tell you that if the inaccuracies taught from 1876 to 1919 were not corrected then you would indeed have a point. I think you will find that those people still exist today. They are called Russellites.

So the unanswered question is:

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is important and must be sanctified, and worldwide unity is a must for God's people, and nationalistic killing is condemned by God, and God's kingdom is not something in your heart but a real government that will restore earthly paradise, and Jesus did not sacrifice his life as a god/man but rather as a perfect man, then are Jehovah's Witnesses God's organization?

Is Don Cameron afraid to answer?

Chances are you too will be surprised if you ever allow yourself to discover all the weird things Russell and Rutherford taught from 1876 to 1919.


My reply: I have known the 'weird' teachings for years. So have most JWs. Its in the publications and not hidden from us therefore we are not surprised. Rather we expect it because we know the prophecies foretold a cleansing and refining. If all things were correct from the gitgo then why a need for cleansing and refining?

The bottom line is the reasoning of Don Cameron contradicts the prophecies. The reasoning is therefore bogus and has no merit.

It is merely a ploy from a disgruntled JW to mislead the unwary. And Don Cameron will continue to fail to address the prophecies just as Propmin and others who make a list of inaccurate JW teachings from the past have done. The reason being, they have no valid answer as to how the prophecies coincide with their bogus reasoning.

And they have no answer to the fact that JWs are the only ones preaching the truth about Jehovah, Jesus, and the Kingdom in worldwide unity. Their only alternative is to return to the false pagan teachings of false religion. But they will try to hide that because when they admit that their influence over the weak is diminished greatly. Thats why Don Cameron does not want to address the question....

This message was last edited at

Don Cameron then started a post entitled,
A Question For Topsy, in hopes that he was an unwary one who could catch him in his web of deceit.
Don Cameron wrote:

Here once again is the Governing Body’s most recent explanation of Matthew 24:45-47:
“When Christ inspected the 'slave' in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'(Read Matthew 24:45-47.)" – January 15, 2008 Watchtower, p. 24
Would you be able to agree that according to this interpretation the only way the Society could be Jehovah’s organization today is if they had received the above appointment in 1918-1919?
Or in other words, without that appointment AT THAT TIME the Society would not be Jehovah’s organization AT THIS TIME?

My reply:
Don Cameron apparently has not realized what he has just asked. Within his quotes and question is the answer. And apparently he never learned what JWs teach about the FDS.

They were not appointed at that time to be God's organization. You see the FDS was appointed way back in the first century. And the anointed ones providing the food at the proper time was the faithful and discreet slave. And so the quote: "When Christ inspected the 'slave' in 1918, he found those ANOINTED ONES on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'"

There was no appointment of the FDS in 1918. The FDS were already appointed. And the Bible Students later called JWs proved that they were those anointed ones, the FDS. How? By providing the food at the proper time.

How was that the proper time? Because Bible truths had been clouded by the great apostasy in Christendom. The Trinity, hellfire, God's Kingdom being merely in your heart, the sacrifice of Jesus as a god/man, the removal of God's name from the Bible and lowering it to of no importance, a paid clergy class, all these teachings needed to be exposed as false. It was the needed food at the time and JWs did just that proving that they were the FDS.

Then came the appointment of all the earthly belongings because they were, sure enough, providing the food at the proper time. Which means nothing more than that they were appointed over the increase that they themselves were contributing to by the preaching and exposing of the basic false doctrines of Christendom.

All the earthly belongings that the slave has been appointed over are those same belongings that the slave increased for the master by being faithful to his appointment to preach the good news and to feed the body of servants or domestics. The faithful slave is merely following the example of the early Christian congregation in faithfully carrying out the preaching of the good news. The result of which has been an increase in the master's belongings and more responsibility is thus given to the faithful and discreet slave because of this increase.

Yes, the slave is in charge of all those earthly belongings of the master because he has proven himself faithful in taking care of and increasing the master's belongings in the first place.

So what is the answer to: "Would you be able to agree that according to this interpretation the only way the Society could be Jehovah’s organization today is if they had received the above appointment in 1918-1919?
Or in other words, without that appointment AT THAT TIME the Society would not be Jehovah’s organization AT THIS TIME?"

JWs would still be Jehovah's organization without the appointment over all the belongings because they are the ones who are providing the food at the proper time and exposing the pagan doctrines of Christendom The FDS is found only among JWs.

But then we're back to the same question that Don Cameron refuses to answer:

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc, then who only can be God's organization?

Don Cameron cannot answer because he is afraid of diminishing his influence on unsuspecting weak ones. He cannot admit that he has returned to the vomit of Christendom for that reason.

If the Society did not prove to be Jehovah’s faithful and discreet slave in 1918-1919, do you feel that it would still be his organization today anyway?


Yes. Here is why.

Lets assume that the FDS was not appointed over all the earthly belongings in 1919. Lets assume that there was no inspection in 1919. Then what?

The reality is that even if the faithful and discreet slave has not yet been appointed over all of the master's belongings he has still been appointed to provide the food. It is really only a matter of quibbling over a word or phrase and its perceived interpretation. The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have only been appointed over the earthly belongings of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought. So whether or not the faithful slave has been appointed over all the belongings as of yet as interpreted by someone else really changes nothing from our standpoint. We still are under obligation to find that faithful and discreet slave that has increased the master's belongings and take in the food that is provided if we want to to be sustained.

So who really is the faithful and discreet slave? Where can the slave class be found?

All one has to do is ask a few simple questions: Who has helped us to learn the marvelous truths of the Bible about God’s name, the trinity, hellfire, paradise earth, God’s kingdom, Jesus' sacrifice, and so on? Who is currently preaching the good news of the Kingdom throughout the earth following the example of Jesus and the first century Christians? Who has been used by Jehovah in building a worldwide and united brotherhood? Who has Jehovah used in providing us with so much spiritual food that it is difficult to even keep up with it all? When you have a Bible question, what publications do you turn to in order to find the answer?(Have you ever noticed that even apostates turn to the Insight book when wanting to find out certain facts about the Bible? Why? Because they have no better Bible source.) It is quite apparent to all who are honest with themselves and others that the faithful and discreet slave is found only among the people known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

But now we are back to the same old question that Don Cameron has repeatedly refused to answer. I will readily admit that if the Trinity is true, and hellfire is true, and God's name is of no importance, and Jesus was a god/man when he died, and God's kingdom is only in your heart, and the earth will be destroyed, then JWs do not have the truth, JWs are not God's organization, and the faithful and discreet slave is not found among JWs.

But will opposers and apostates like Don Cameron admit the opposite to be true since it is only JWs that are exposing these teachings in worldwide unity like no other religion? Will Don Cameron continue to refuse to answer?

And I will even make one final assumption for the sake of argument although I do not believe it. Lets assume that JWs would have failed the inspection in the early 1900s. At the future inspection who will Jesus recognize as the FDS and appoint over all the belongings?

Will it be the ones who teach that he is a triune god, tortures souls in the fires of hell, removes his Father's name from the Bible, denies the ransom by claiming that he did not die a man but rather a god/man, kills his fellow brother because he is of another race or nationality, has utter and complete disunity?

Or will it be the ones that are unitedly preaching the good news of the Kingdom worldwide and exposing these God-dishonoring teachings?

But here again, we are back to the same old question that Don Cameron refuses to answer....

And so we continued to wait for Don Cameron to answer the simple question.

He continued to try to sidestep the question:
Don Cameron wrote:

Here are my answer to the question you have asked me several times:
You asked,“If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then who only can be God's organization?”
As I have said previously, from 1876 to 1919 the Society was not the only religion that taught that the Trinity was false, and hellfire was false, etc. If the Society passed Jesus’ exam on those subjects, all other religions who taught the same things would have also passed his exam on those questions.
I have a favor to ask…
Would you please stop announcing to the world over and over again that I have refused to answer your questions? I don’t mind you saying that you don’t agree with my answers but it doesn’t seem fair to equate the fact that you do not agree with my answers to mean that I haven’t tried to answer your questions.

My reply:
The question was not answered. I said nothing about the years between 1876-1919 in my question. All those other religions that Mr. Cameron speaks of where are they now? Are they preaching these truths worldwide?

I understand that if we were in the year of 1919 Mr. Cameron would think that all of those religions which taught those truths would pass the test according to his answer. But since we do not live in the year of 1919, his answer is null and void and the question still sits there on the table unanswered.

I must therefore continue to point out that the question was not answered but merely dodged, unless of course this is really the year of 1919.

I perceive that Mr. Cameron does not want to admit that he has decided to return to these teachings of Christendom, at least one or two of them. Such an admission diminishes his influence that he might have on the unsuspecting. He of course wants to concentrate his efforts on Topsey thinking that he is one of those unsuspecting ones that will be easy pickings for his errant reasoning. From reading what Topsey has written before on the subject I think he will be suprised.

But I'll let Topsey answer and I will continue to announce that Mr. Cameron did not answer the question asked.

Cameron again turned his attention in hopes of leading Topsy down the broad road.
Don Cameron wrote:

Topsy,
Here is one of those...'Why Doesn't This Bother You?' kinda question:
On page 713 of the "Proclaimers" book it refers to the December 1, 1984 Watchtower having to do with 'Christian Watchfulness.'
On page 14 it said this: "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching."
The problem here of course is that in 1914 there was not a single Witness who was watching for Christ's invisible presence to begin in 1914 because they all believed that his invisible presence had already begun 40 years earlier.
I went over that study with two elders back in 1984. They could see that that article was full of statements that were misleading if not outright not true. They didn't care.
When you become aware of the Governing Body doing these things, does it concern you at all?
How much of this sort of thing can you put up with before you can no longer put up with it?
At this point I'm not real sure that you believe that the Society really is Jehovah's faithful and discreet slave organization. At least not in the same way they claim they are.
Hmmmmmm....

My reply:
More misleading information. IN 1880 the March WT said,“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”(end of quote). So yes those Bible students were watching for Jesus and his kingdom. No not for Christ's invisible presence to begin but rather for the Kingdom to take full sway over the earth.

And so this statement in that 1984 WT: "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." is true. And the WT is merely saying this: When Christ's invisible presence began in 1914 (as we now know), those JWs were indeed watching for the Christ to return (in full kingdom power) as the 1880 WT showed. Yes they were indeed watching but expected much more than what happened.
That is why the very next article in that Dec 1, 1984 WT states: "True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert."

I am always amazed that apostates must rely upon misleading information to make their points. I wonder why? Perhaps Don Cameron can tell us.

I sure hope that Mr. Cameron didn't write his book based on his misconception that the WTS teaches that the Bible Students (later JWs) were appointed as the FDS in 1919. I sure would hate for him to have to throw his book in the trash and rewrite it because it is based on false premises and not in accord with what the WT publications really teach. On second thought that is probably not necessary anyway as it will fit in nicely with many of the other essays and books written based on misconceived notions and apostate invented teachings of JWs that JWs do not really teach.

1) The 1000-year Reign of Christ under God’s Kingdom began in 1873
2) The King of God’s Kingdom had returned in 1874.
3) God’s Kingdom was set up in heaven in 1878
4) Jesus was installed as King of God’s Kingdom in 1878
5) Jesus began ruling as the King of God’s Kingdom in 1878.
6) Under God’s Kingdom the dead in union with Christ were resurrected in 1881.
7) Under God’s Kingdom anointed Witnesses would be taken to heaven before 1914.
God’s Kingdom would be firmly established in the earth by 1914.
9) God’s Kingdom would destroy all false religion by end of 1914.
10) God’s Kingdom would destroy all Gentile nations by the end of 1914.
11) God’s Kingdom would destroy all false religion by the end of 1925.
12) God’s Kingdom would Gentile nations near the end of 1915.
13) Jesus would begin ruling God’s Kingdom in 1925
14) Under God’s Kingdom Jesus would resurrect Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in 1925.
15) Under God’s Kingdom the anointed Witnesses would be taken to heaven in 1925.

And it is such a nice list. Thanks again for showing us how JWs follow the lead of God's spirit and discard inaccurate teachings unlike other religions that still are stuck on the most basic of god-dishonoring falsehoods: Trinity, hellfire, God's name being of no importance etc.

Jehovah does truly refine his organization as Don Cameron has so graciously shown us here....

Diogenes added a nice point:

"3W, I also noticed Don Cameron conveniently failed to mention that the WT qualified that statement “"And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." In the very same magazine.

However, comments from PropMin and Cameron got me to thinking about all those times JW’s expected one thing and got another. Or about all those dates that came and went and with nothing to show for it but “New Light”. Then I began to reflect back on the first century Christian congregation and the apostles. There were many things that they expected and got something totally different. For instance they expected Jesus to begin his kingship on earth and that they would serve under him. And yet they got something totally different. They also expected that kingdom to come in their lifetime. Yet again unrealized expectations. There was even a rumor spread out among the brothers that the kingdom would come before John’s death. And who started the rumor?

John 21: 21 Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus:“Lord, what will this [man do]?” 22 Jesus said to him:“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but:“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”

That’s right, none other than Jesus himself. Can you imagine the disappointment some of the brothers had on the day John died? No doubt many were stumbled. Especially those who did not have real appreciation for the truth, and for the love, and unity among the brothers and sisters. I’m sure there were many who thought the kingdom would be established within that generation.

But then it occurred to me, on several occasions Jesus insinuated that his return would come within their lifetime. For instance “The Kingdom of the Heavens has drawn near”. Or even this scripture:

Acts 1:11 and they said:“Men of Gal´i•lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

So why did Jesus let this rumor perpetuate? Maybe because it was by DESIGN. Not that Jesus is trying to mislead anyone but rather he allows it to happen. Jesus knows only too well the hearts of men. If Jesus had come right out and said,“The Kingdom will come in 2000 years, so go therefore and make disciples” I don’t believe that would have created a sense of urgency.

This would leave one to conclude that believing (and even teaching) the kingdom will come before its time is something that is acceptable to Jehovah, dare I say even allowable. So by believing the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1942, 1975, 1984, had the net effect of giving the witnesses of Jehovah a desire to spread the word and make even more disciples. It also serves as a test for those who do not have real love for the truth and become stumbled because of all the unrealized expectations."

Don Cameron wrote:
Diogenes,
You said,“3W, I also noticed Don Cameron conveniently failed to mention that the WT qualified that statement “
"And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." In the very same magazine.”
Where did that December, 1984 Watchtower qualify the statement, "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching."

My reply:
...I just answered this.

IN 1880 the March WT said,“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”(end of quote). So yes those Bible students were watching for Jesus and his kingdom. No not for Christ's invisible presence to begin but rather for the Kingdom to take full sway over the earth.

And so this statement in that 1984 WT: "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." is true. And the WT is merely saying this: When Christ's invisible presence began in 1914 (as we now know), those JWs were indeed watching for the Christ to return (in full kingdom power) as the 1880 WT showed. Yes they were indeed watching but expected much more than what happened.

That is why the very next article in that Dec 1, 1984 WT states: "True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert."

The first quote: "So when Christ’s invisible presence began in 1914, happy were these Christians to have been found watching!" is specifically found on page 14, the last paragraph of the study article. The subject then continued in the very next article.

The qualifying quote in the next article came on paragraph 9: ""True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert."

Added point now: Of course Don Cameron had nothing else to say about this. No statement of retraction and no apology. He just ignored his blunder as is the common practice of apotates caught in a web of deceit.

This message was last edited at

Don Cameron was not quite thru with his deceit.
Don Cameron wrote:

Who first demonstrated their respect for the importance of Jehovah’s Name in the Bible before Jesus’ exam began in 1918? I don’t think it was the Watchtower Society for the following reason:
The Society had waited until 1950 (or so) to restore Jehovah’s Name to the Hebrew Scriptures in their NWT.


My reply:
Another misleading mischaracterization. The NWT did not even exist until the 1950s. How could JWs possibly restore the name in a Bible translation that didn't even exist?

I guess the reasoning is that if JWs or Russell didn't do it or say it first then Jehovah couldn't approve of them. I guess Mr. Cameron believes that Jehovah works on a first come first serve basis.'Sorry too late for you, you didn't say it first. You can't be my servant'.

Don Cameron wrote:
I just noticed your statement:“I am still waiting for Don Cameron's answer in 2008 not what his answer would be in 1919.”
The reason I base my answer on what they Society was teaching down till 1918 is because the Governing Body bases its answer on what the Society had been down till 1918 – not down till 2008.
Here is their interpretation again…
"When Christ inspected the 'slave'*in 1918* he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'(Read Matthew 24:45-47.)"
I notice what it DOESN’T say:“When Christ inspected the ‘slave’*in 2008.*
I don’t base my decision that the Society is or isn’t Jehovah’s organization on anything the Society has done or taught since the spring of 1919. My decision is based solely on what the Society had done and taught from 1876 to 1919 BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT YOUR GOVERNING BODY TEACHES in their above interpretation.
But for whatever reason, you don’t seem to be able to see what the above interpretation means.
It looks to me that you have come up with your own explanation of Matthew 24:45-47, which allows you to continue to believe what you believe no matter how bad the Society’s pre-1919 teachings were or no matter how many of them there were.

My reply:
I see that Don Cameron continues to be stuck in a time machine somewhere between 1874 and 1919. I never asked any question that involved those years. And besides that the WT's interpretation has nothing to do with any appointment as the FDS which are God's people.

So Don Cameron continues to dodge the question. Let me repeat it. It is such a simple question.

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then who only can be God's organization?

JWs will readily admit that if those teachings that JWs expose as being false, are all true then their is no FDS to be found among JWs and JWs are not God's people. Why is it so hard for opposers like Don Cameron to admit the opposite?

Here is their interpretation again…
"When Christ inspected the 'slave'*in 1918* he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'(Read Matthew 24:45-47.)"

...I don’t base my decision that the Society is or isn’t Jehovah’s organization on anything the Society has done or taught since the spring of 1919. My decision is based solely on what the Society had done and taught from 1876 to 1919 BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT YOUR GOVERNING BODY TEACHES in their above interpretation.
But for whatever reason, you don’t seem to be able to see what the above interpretation means.
It looks to me that you have come up with your own explanation of Matthew 24:45-47,


My reply:
Don Cameron himself previously admitted: "You correctly pointed out that the Society’s teaching is that the appointment mentioned Matthew 24:47 does NOT refer to an appointment to become Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave." They say that the Society was already Jesus’“slave” before he gave the above appointment to them in the spring of 1919.

That was an appointment “over all Jesus’ belongings” rather than to become his “faithful and discreet slave.” That verse does not say,“He will appointment him to be his faithful and discreet Slave.’ " end of quote.

Therefore with the clear admission made by Don Cameron you would think that the question that any thinking person should be asking is this: Who today is providing the food at the proper time thus proving themselves to be the faithful and discreet slave, Jehovah's people?

So we are back to the same old question once again which Don Cameron refuses to answer and continues to dodge. I will ask it again and I will ask that you take note that the question does not involve the years 1874 to 1919.

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then who only can be God's organization?

And I will add again that JWs will readily admit that if those teachings that JWs expose as being false, are all true then their is no FDS to be found among JWs and JWs are not God's people. Why is it so hard for opposers like Don Cameron to admit the opposite?

It looks to me that you have come up with your own explanation of Matthew 24:45-47, which allows you to continue to believe what you believe no matter how bad the Society’s pre-1919 teachings were or no matter how many of them there were.


Sorry, thats not my interpretation. Thats what the Bible prophecies foretold. They say there would be a cleansing and refining of God's people. Revelation shows that in the Lord's day God's people would be in need of correction. I did not write the prophecies.

The words cleansing and refining denotes the need for changes. JWs have made such changes. And they are the only religion to do so. If you disagree with the prophecies and can show them to be in error then by all means do so.

I don’t base my decision that the Society is or isn’t Jehovah’s organization on anything the Society has done or taught since the spring of 1919. My decision is based solely on what the Society had done and taught from 1876 to 1919 BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT YOUR GOVERNING BODY TEACHES in their above interpretation.
But for whatever reason, you don’t seem to be able to see what the above interpretation means.

It looks to me that you have come up with your own explanation of Matthew 24:45-47, which allows you to continue to believe what you believe no matter how bad the Society’s pre-1919 teachings were or no matter how many of them there were.


My reply:
Don Cameron has written a book on a faulty premise. JWs do not believe that they received authority from Christ in 1919 to give the proper food as the faithful and discreet slave.

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..."

Matt 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

The authority to provide the food at the proper time was given to the FDS long before 1919? Jesus tells us that at some later date the FDS would receive even more authority. Don Cameron apparently believes that if the FDS, found among JWs, did not receive that extra authority in 1919 then they have no authority today and therefore cannot be God's people. Clearly he has blundered.

Even if the extra authority was not given in 1919 and that authority is yet future, this does not change the fact that the FDS was given authority to give the food at the proper time. So the question is not whether the FDS, found only among JWs, received the extra authority in 1919 but rather are JWs providing the food at the proper time as the FDS was authorized to do thus proving themselves to be God's people.

His captive of concepts is actually based on a misconception of what JWs believe leaving him a captive of his own misconcepts.

And leaving him with this unanswerable question (at least unanswerable by Don Cameron):

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then who only can be God's organization?

At last Don Cameron answered the question and in so doing he showed the ultimate dishonesty.
Don Cameron wrote:

I think I finally understand your question.
You have repeatedly asked,“If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc,… WHO ONLY CAN BE GOD’S ORGANIZATION?”
MYANSWER: No one!....


My reply:
Ah, at last the answer comes and it is the only answer Mr. Cameron could give in hopes of not diminishing his influence on the unwary. But in so answering Don Cameron has revealed his dishonesty and lack of love for truth. How?

The question is asked with the understanding that what JWs teach on the subjects are Biblical truths. So heres what we have.

1. Fact: God is not a Trinity. JWs teach the Biblical truth about the Trinity, thus worshiping the only true God, and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's teach and worship the god-dishonoring pagan and demon-inspired Trinity. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

2. Fact: Hellfire is a lie. JWs teach the Biblical truth about hellfire and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's worship the god-dishonoring sadistic and cruel god of the pagans. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

3. Fact: God's name Jehovah is of the utmost importance and should be proclaimed far and wide and sanctified. JWs teach the Biblical truth about God's name and preach that truth worldwide, even calling themselves JEHOVAH'S witnesses. All other worldwide religion's see no importance in His name, some even removing the name from God's own word. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

4. Fact: God's kingdom in the hands of Jesus will restore earth to a paradise. JWs teach the Biblical truth about God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's claim the kingdom is in your heart, the earth will be burned up, or some other similar teaching. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

5. Fact: Jesus gave his life as a ransom as a perfect man not a god/man. JWs teach the Biblical truth about Jesus and the ransom and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religions point to a false Jesus that did not really provide a ransom since it was not an 'eye for an eye' but rather a god/man for a man, thus there is really no salvation since the ransom was not really paid. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

6. Fact: this good news of the Kingdom and all of the above must unitedly be preached worldwide. JWs teach and preach these Biblical truths unitedly worldwide. No other relgion on the face of the earth does that. Even within their own religion they are disunited, sometimes even killing one another in times of war. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

7. Fact: Jesus said a faithful and discreet slave would provide the food at the proper time. Only JWs are providing that food as shown above worldwide. Don Cameron says it doesn't matter.

Remember, Don Cameron is answering the question with the assumption that JWs have all the above things correct. And yet, he is willing to forego those truths just so he can answer the question with a NO. Does this sound like an honest man wanting to only show people the truth? Who really wants to listen to a man who teaches that truth is of no importance and does not matter? A man who would have no qualms about substituting misleading lies for truths and a man who has written an entire book on a misconception about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Don Cameron has admitted that the truth just does not matter to him.

But Cameron was not quite thru. Realizing that his entire book had been written based on his misconceived notion about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses about the appointment of the FDS he attempted to again mislead in hopes of snatching his inaccurate book out of the fire.
Don Cameron wrote:

I had previously said that although the Society’s official teaching is that the Matthew 24:47 was not an appointment to be Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave,” Propmin produced a statement in the 12/15/71 Watchtower that ‘sounds’ like that’s what that appointment WAS for. Notice…
WT 12-15-71
“10 The facts of modern history show that in the year 1919 he revived these much afflicted disciples and gathered them together in a united body. THEN HE APPOINTED THEM AS HIS ‘SLAVE CLASS "over all his belongings."
I can see two different ways of understanding this statement…

1) This is when Jesus appointed the Society as his slave class.

2) This is then Jesus appointed his already existing slave class “over all his belongings.”

I don’t know if the Society’s writers wrote this ambiguous way on purpose, or is this simply a matter of grammar or poor word order?



BE careful. Your about to invent a teaching for JWs that they do not have in order to promote your agenda based on a misconcept. But who can blame Don Cameron. He must somehow save all the hard work he put into his fallacy written book from the fire. But just for the sake of real truth seekers lets examine that WT and maybe we can see if it contradicts the other WT publications.

“8 Before Jesus Christ the Lord left by ascending to heaven, he gathered together his faithful disciples, including his loyal apostles. On the day of Pentecost following his ascension back to his heavenly Father, Jesus received and poured out the holy spirit on his disciples gathered together at Jerusalem, and thereby he appointed this “slave” class, this “steward” class, to give to his “domestics,” his “body of attendants,” spiritual food,“their measure of food supplies at the proper time.” The slave class proceeded to do so.”

Question on paragraph 8:“8. When … did Jesus appoint this “steward” or “slave” class,…?”

Answer from the paragraph: “On the day of Pentecost following his ascension back to his heavenly Father.”

Lets now move to paragraph 10.

“10 The facts of modern history show that in the year 1919 he revived these much afflicted disciples and gathered them together in a united body. Then he appointed them as his “slave” class “over all his belongings,” that is, over all his royal interests at the earth.(Rev. 11:7-12)…”

Question on paragraph 10.“What appointment did he make respecting that faithful “slave” class in 1919,…?”

The answer is not, he appointed him as the faithful and discreet slave. That would make no sense because paragraph 8 showed the FDS already appointed and within the question on paragraph 10 is the phrase ‘that faithful slave class’. If the paragraph was saying that they were appointed as the FDS in 1919 then the question would have been: When were these Bible Students appointed as the FDS. The answer is to paragraph 10 is: he appointed them over all his belongings on earth (not he appointed them as the faithful and discreet slave).

But nice try.

This message was last edited at

His foolish notions were about to be further exposed.
Don Cameron wrote:

ThirdWitness,
One of the things I noticed about your point of view is that you base your belief that the Society IS Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE SOCIETY IS TEACHING in 2008 (present tense). But I base my belief that the Society ISN’T Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE SOCIETY WAS TEACHING DOWN TILL 1918 (past tense).
According to the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47, which one of is mistaken?…
"When Christ inspected the 'slave'* in 1918 *, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'(Read Matthew 24:45-47.)"
I notice that the date is 1918 not 2008.
Another thing I notice is the different way we view each other. I view you as someone who is sincere but for whatever reason(s) has been unable to get the sense of what the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 means.

As a result I view your "God's organization" as just an illusion that exists only in your mind.
But you view me as being deliberately dishonest, which displays my “lack of love for truth.” That’s OK since I try not to take anything you say personally.
As to whether or not the Society is Jehovah’s organization, I’m afraid that as long as we base our decisions from different STARTING points (me: 1876 to 1919 and you: 200 we will not be able help each other reach the same ENDING point.


My reply:

Hey look I found this letter from the first century. Please look.

Greetings brother,

One of the things I noticed about your point of view is that you base your belief that the Way IS Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE Way IS TEACHING 70 years after our Saviour's death (present tense). But I base my belief that the Way ISN’T Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE Way WAS TEACHING and how those leaders of the Way were acting DOWN TILL the death of our Lord (past tense).

According to the apostle' interpretation, Christ was going to return and set up his kingdom right there on earth after his ressurection. Then when Christ did not take rule of Jerusalem immediately after his ressurection, according to the apostles' understanding, John would still be alive when Christ's rulership took full sway.

Not only that the apostles argued among themselves, each wanting prominence, and even denied the Lord at the time of his death, thus proving themselves to be cowardly.

The apostles' then claim that "When Christ 'poured out holy spirit' there at Pentecost in the year Christ died, he found those disciples there gathered in Jerusalem to be faithful. Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them as his faithful and discreet slave, as his organization, as his people, yes even pour out holy spirit upon them. And this just a few short days after they argued who was the greatest and denied Jesus and showed their faithlessness.

I notice that the date that they claim holy spirit was poured out is in the year that our Lord died, not here some years after the death of the last apostle John. So how could they possibly have received holy spirit at that time with their grasping for prominence,their wrong understanding, and their cowardly faithlessness toward the Lord himself? Why would Jesus choose ones as the faithful and discreet slave who had shown such faithlessness and indiscreetness only a few days earlier?

As a result I view your "God's organization" as just an illusion that exists only in your mind.
But you view me as being deliberately dishonest, which displays my “lack of love for truth.” That’s OK since I try not to take anything you say personally.

As to whether or not the Way is Jehovah’s organization, I’m afraid that as long as we base our decisions from different STARTING points (me: in the year our Lord died and you: now) we will not be able help each other reach the same ENDING point.
Salutations,
Donicles

I guess Cameron had had enough exposure. Like the old sly serpent it was time to turn his efforts back to one he thought he might have a chance at misleading.
Don Cameron wrote:

Topsy,

Please consider this question:

If the Society isn't Jehovah's organization, what would it take to convince you that it isn't?

He was exposed and his book was discredited. And we haven't heard from him since on those threads. But I'm quite sure he will return with perhaps new deceptions using the same old tired apostate tactics.

Don Cameron did start one other thread during his brief stay which showed his outright ridiculousness. Often times, apostates have a tendency to post outright ridiculous things in hopes of discrediting Jehovah's Witnesses. Here is his efforts at ridiculousness.

The Worldwide Unity of Jehovah’s Witnesses

ThirdWitness and perhaps most other Witnesses feel that one of the proofs that the Society is Jehovah’s organization is the fact that no mater where they live on earth they all believe the same. But the question is WHY do they have their “unity of belief”?

They are told that this is because all their beliefs are based on the Bible. But what Witnesses haven’t noticed is that they have had the exact same unity of belief even when their teachings have NOT been based on the Bible. This suggests to me that there must be another reason why all Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the same.

Here is an example: For many decades the Society taught that it was “the Creator’s promise” that the new world be here before the generation of 1914 passes away. And so that’s what all Jehovah’s Witnesses believed. They had their worldwide “unity of belief.”

But in November of 1995 the Governing Body decided that that teaching was NOT “based on the Bible” and therefore they stopped teaching it.

What did Jehovah’s Witnesses then do? They were required to stop believing it in order to maintain their unity of belief.

In other words, in order to have their unity of belief BEFORE November of 1995 they were required to accept the above teaching or be disfellowshipped.* But in order to maintain their unity of belief AFTER November of 1995 all Witnesses were required to stop believing it.

What does this show? What it shows me is that the real reason why all Jehovah’s Witnesses “speak in agreement” is because their Governing Body does not allow anyone to remain in their religion who doesn’t believe everything they are currently teaching – EVEN IF WHAT THEY ARE TEACHING IS NOT TRUE.

I find it difficult to believe that this is the way the Christian religion is suppose to work.

GraceforSin chimed in:

Graceforsin wrote:
Believing Jesus unites us.
Recieving Jesus unites us.
Following Jesus unites us, and this only by the direct power of the Holy Spirit.

My reply:
At last, we agree on what I have quoted that you (Grace) said above. Too bad it has not united the churches of Christendom today. They kill their fellow Jesus lover because they are a different race or nationality. They all believe different things about Jesus and who he was and what he taught. There is no unity.

But the real Jesus does unite. The only begotten son of God unites his people. The Jesus who gave his life as a perfect man, not a god-man, has a united people who spread the truth about his sacrifice worldwide. The real true Jesus who is not part of some mystic God-head has a people exposing this false pagan doctrine for what it truly is, a teaching of demons. The Jesus who taught love for fellow man has a united people who does not slaughter one another in war. The Jesus who is King of God's Kingdom has subjects who tell others how this heavenly government will restore mankind to perfection in paradise. The Jesus who made known God's name and said he would continue to make it known has a united people making that Name known worldwide. The Jesus that does not burn souls in hellfire for all eternity, has a united people freed from such cruel and sadistic teachings.

To sum it up, the real Jesus is preached only by Jehovah's Witnesses. Hey you yourself said it.

"Believing Jesus unites us.
Recieving Jesus unites us.
Following Jesus unites us, and this only by the direct power of the Holy Spirit."

And thats what JWs are..........united. Much to the chagrin of Don Cameron who apparently prefers that the true religion should be disunited and somehow that makes sence.????

Excellent point indeed Grace.

Maybe this is what Paul meant when he said at 1 Cor 1:10, "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

Naw, nevermind. Don Cameron says disunity is better. Who is Paul compared to Don Cameron?

At this point Propmin thought he might try to help out his hero. He listed the changes that JWs had made about 'this generation will by no means pass away.'

PropMin then concluded:
“cleansing” or JUST PLAIN WRONG?


My reply: It may have indeed been the wrong interpretation. If so, what has been proved? I do know that it has been changed. And I do know that JWs do make corrections when they see they are wrong and I do know that the FDS has plainly admitted as the Sept 1, 1997 WT states:

"15 Jehovah’s Witnesses have been eager to know when the day of Jehovah will occur. In their eagerness they have at times made attempts to estimate when it might come. But by so doing, they have failed, as did Jesus’ early disciples, to heed their Master’s caution that we “do not know when the appointed time is.”(Mark 13:32, 33) Ridiculers have mocked faithful Christians for their premature expectations.(2 Peter 3:3, 4) Nevertheless, Jehovah’s day will come, Peter affirms, according to His timetable."

The Kingdom Proclaimers book page 71 states: "As a worldwide congregation, they have “the full assurance of their understanding.”(Col. 2:2) It is not that they feel that they understand every detail of Jehovah’s purposes. They keep searching the Scriptures with an open mind, and they keep learning. But what they learn does not change their basic viewpoint regarding the fundamental truths of God’s Word. They are ‘fully assured’ of these foundation truths; they have recognized and accepted them for many decades now. What they learn does, however, continually improve their understanding of how certain scriptures fit into the overall pattern of Bible truth and how they can more fully apply the counsel of God’s Word in their own lives."

So I fail to see what point you are trying to make. The publishers of WT publications do not claim infalibility nor inspiration and they freely admit their failings. That is exactly how they allow Jesus to cleanse and refine them. Something totally foreign to other religions who are still stuck on the most basic of false doctrines: hellfire, trinity, God's name of no importance, God's kingdom only in your heart, earth destroyed, Jesus the god/man sacrifice, disunity, war killing, and so on.

The prophecies are clear. God's people would be cleansed and refined in the Lord's day. And opposers have no way of refuting those prophecies. Just look around. Which religion has corrected and changed their inaccurate teachings or practices as they recognize them to be so? What religious organization has allowed such cleansing and refining just as prophesyed? I'll give you a hint: Opposers like Propmin and Don Cameron are very fond of listing their past inaccuracies and we do appreciate that because it helps us to see who God is refining and cleansing.

Be honest.

The problem is that people are not interested in what the Bible teaches us about what he Faithful Slave would be like when Jesus arrived.

In fact Don Cameron's entire argument rests on convincing us that he knows what teachings were the important ones to Jesus when he made the inspection in 1918.

Does Don Cameron really know which teachings Jesus held most dear in 1918? Did Jesus really expect men perfect in knowledge when he arrived?

3rdwitness has plainly shown *from the Bible* that Jesus could NOT have had that expectation of his slave.

He did not expect it in the first century when he made the appointment to provide food for his sheep. Why would he then expect it 2000 years later against all Bible prophecy? Of course he would not expect perfection from his appointed slave.

In fact when he originally appointed the slave to feed his sheep, Jesus made it clear that a key qualification was that they LOVE him. Not that they were 'perfect in knowledge'. But that they LOVED him.

John 21:15-17
15 When, now, they had breakfasted, Jesus said to Simon Peter: “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Feed my lambs.” 16 Again he said to him, a second time: “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Shepherd my little sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time: “Simon son of John, do you have affection for me?” Peter became grieved that he said to him the third time: “Do you have affection for me?” So he said to him: “Lord, you know all things; you are aware that I have affection for you.” Jesus said to him: “Feed my little sheep.

I think 3rdwitness made it quite clear who LOVED Jesus most at the time of the appointment 'over all his belongings'. Those who did not teach young Christians to engage in nationalistic warfare, following after the rider on the red horse...

Those who knew his Father's name: "Jehovah" and how important it was.

Those who knew Jesus to be distinct and separate from Jehovah. Not part of a pagan-styled deity in three (yet only one) but yet three.

Clearly those bearing witness to the sovereignty of Jehovah and to the rightful rule of His Christ Jesus.

ahh ...what an excellent read, first thing in the morning!....

that appointment he made in the first century would certainly pay off for the master. The Love that exists among the congregations (the true way to identify it) is certainly refreshing.....AND I am not just talking about the sentimental anemic kind of apostate/evangelical christian love ....but REAL love ....that implements the demands of Jehovah's standard's...HIS standards of morality, unity, truth, etc....

yep ...I think I'll go let my neighbors know today that there is such an Organization on this earth .....

There is actually even more to come as Cameron and his cronies even dug a deeper whole.

Propmin posted Graceforsin's explanation of the refining and cleansing prophecies.

Here is what Grace 4 Sin said about cleansing:


Daniel and the Old Testament prophets prophecied about JESUS and all of His people in the last days.

This refinment does not come about by making mistakes and false prophecies!

What does the BIBLE say about this? Refinement comes about by suffering adversity!

1 Peter 1:6-7 Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been put to grief in various trials, that the proof of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ--

JESUS..it always comes back to Him and His followers. We are refined IN Jesus, not any religion, by clinging to our faith in Jesus while facing various trials.

John 16:33 I have told you these things, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have oppression; but cheer up! I have overcome the world."
Daniels refinement;
Daniel 12:10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but those who are wise shall understand.

Refined because they made errors and false predictions? NO!

Daniel 11:33-35 Those who are wise among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help; but many shall join themselves to them with flatteries. Some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine them, and to purify, and to make them white, even to the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Can this be applied to a religion that claims to speak for God and is refined because they have to change what they meant? NO!

ADVERSITY brings forth refinement, not teaching false teaching.

Psalms 66:9-12 Who preserves our life among the living, And doesn't allow our feet to be moved. For you, God, have tested us. You have refined us, as silver is refined. You brought us into prison. You laid a burden on our backs. You allowed men to ride over our heads. We went through fire and through water, But you brought us to the place of abundance.

All people who follow Jesus and face adversities for HIS name, are the only ones being refined.
Adversity brings forth Christian refinement;

Acts 14:21-22 When they had preached the Good News to that city, and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many afflictions we must enter into the Kingdom of God.

In summary Peter explicitly describes without question what it means to be refined;

1 Peter 4:12-16 Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you, to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you.

But because you are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also you may rejoice with exceeding joy.

If you are insulted for the name of Christ, blessed are you; because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. On their part he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified.

For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil doer, or as a meddler in other men's matters. But if one of you suffers for being a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this matter.

Part 2:

Can Christian refinment be applied the way the Watchtower applies this teaching? NO!
Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run back and forth, and knowledge shall be increased."

Of this difficult chapter very different views are taken by commentators. It probably contains a glance at the final struggle with antichrist, the victory of God's cause, and the consummation of all things. Of course the Watchtower will apply it only to them since the Watchtower sees themselves as the center of the universe.

This time of trouble is connected with the final overthrow of Satan's power, not to the church age which we are currently in. Compare the troubles of the seventh vial, Re 16:17-21.

Concerning Dan. 12:9-10, one simply needs to finish reading the chapter;

Daniel 12:13 But go you your way until the end be; for you shall rest, and shall stand in your lot, at the end of the days.

Now what will happen during this "end of days?"

Go back up to verse 2; Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The final resurrection and judgment will complete on the one hand the triumph of Christ and his church, and on the other the destruction of Satan and his followers.

THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET, it can NOT apply to the Watchtower.
Topsy wrote;
"Now notice the similarites between the wrods used in that verse with the following
Malachi 3:1-3
1) Since there would be a refining and a cleansing then this means that there would not be a 100% accurate understanding of bible principles even in the last days
2) Jesus would choose the group that would be willing to change themsleves and be refined and cleansed."

Malachi 3:3a...and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver;

Shall purify the sons of Levi; this was fulfilled in the spiritual priesthood which Christ established. 1Pe 2:5

Now what does the Bible say about followers of Jesus and the refinment? See my previous posts on individual followers of Christ suffering adversities.

1 Peter 1:7 that the proof of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ--

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction.

Can any of this be applied to the Watchtower? NO!;
1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself will test what sort of work each man's work is.

EACH MAN is refined individually through adversities suffered for the name of Jesus Christ.

Congratulations. Grace has proven that individuals can be tested and refined. Of this we never had a doubt.

Lets examine her reasoning:

1. Individuals are spoken of as being tested and refined.
2. Therefore God does not refine and cleanse God’s people as an organization.
3. Therefore the prophecies cannot apply to God’s organization today.

That is plain illogical reasoning. It is bogus and has no merit whatsoever. Just because individuals are spoken of as being tested and refined then somehow the prophecies cannot apply to God’s people as a whole or as an organization. Why? Who made that rule? All we have to do is examine the scriptures and we can immediately see that the prophecies apply to God’s people, his organization. And there are indeed several of them proving this very point.

Zech 13: 9 "And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine THEM as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say,‘It is my PEOPLE,’ and it, in its turn, will say,‘Jehovah is my God.’”

The terms 'them' and 'people' leave no doubt that the prophecy applies to God’s people as a group, his organization. And notice that those being refined are also called ‘it’. Would individuals be called ‘it’? Of course not. That makes no sense whatsoever. But God’s people as an organization would appropriately be called ‘it’.

“It (the third part or God’s organization), for its part, will call upon my name.” Isn’t it uncanny that God’s organization is spoken of as calling upon His name? What organization on earth today are known for calling upon God’s name? And what is God’s response to those who call upon His name? “ I will say,‘It (the organization) is my PEOPLE,’ and it, in its turn, will say,‘Jehovah is my God.’” Isn’t it just absolutely amazing that God’s organization is made up of the ones who call upon His name and say,‘JEHOVAH is my God.’?

Now lets go back and look at Malachi 3 again. After the refining and cleansing is prophecied notice what happens?

“16 At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.
17 “And they will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said,“at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him. 18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.””

Wow, isn’t it amazing that again it is the ones ‘thinking upon God’s name’ who He calls His. 17 “And THEY will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said,“at the day when I am producing a SPECIAL PROPERTY.” By using the pronoun ‘they’ and calling them a ‘special property’ there can be no doubt that the prophecy is not merely talking about individuals being refined. Clearly, without a doubt, it is talking about God’s special people, His organization.

“18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”” The distinction is oh so very clear. It is Jehovah’s Witnesses who think and call upon God’s name and who declare that name worldwide and no one else.

Of course then we also have the letters to the 7 congregations. The 7 congregations required correction and cleansing, not just as individuals but as congregations themselves, as an organization. As a matter of fact, in chapter 3 verse 18 it is said:

“I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garmentS…”

The fact that garments is plural and the fact that the gold is to be symbolically bought from Christ shows that the congregations or organization of congregations, not merely individuals, are in need of both cleansing and refining by Jesus in the Lord’s Day.

All the illogical reasoning and false unbiblical notions of Propmin, Grace, or Don Cameron cannot refute the prophecies. They are black and white for all to see who will honestly examine them.

Teleologist wrote:
Thirdwitness says:
"But wait, there was one group who did not do these things. There was one group who was teaching that God's name was Jehovah ...Yes, you keep repeating that it's these core teachings that establish the WTS as God's organization, but Russellites/Bible Students have these same core beliefs and JW's view them as apostates. The teachings you say distinguished true Christians from false Christians back in 1919, are not good enough to distinguish true Christians from false Christians today, right? So evidently you think something else is needed. What is it?


Yes, something else is indeed needed. And I thought I made that pretty clear. It is the worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom and all that it entails that is needed. Russellites are not doing that. Only JWs are doing that. The ones that did not want to preach went their own separate way and made no progress. Not so the faithful and discreet slave. They continue to provide the food at the proper time and preach this good news of the Kingdom worldwide. Thus the dramatic increase in God's organization.

PropMin wrote:

So what you have is an ever circular reasoning in which the WT can always claim that what they believe at the moment is right, because God led them to that conclusion, even if it was wrong, but it was changed, and around and around and around we go....

The WT does NOT freely admit their failings, they merely make a change of policy, doctrine, or interpretation. This is NOT of humility, it is of necessity.


It never ceases to amaze me watching apostates and opposers making deceitful and false claims about JWs. Why can they not just tell the facts rather than trying to deceive, exaggerate, or just plain lie in hopes of discrediting JWs. Maybe Propmin or Don Cameron could answer that for us. Because they are both guilty of doing just that.

Here Propmin claims that the WT publications do not admit their failing or mistakes. In essence he seems to be saying that the WT blames God for their inaccuracies. Is that really so?

Let me take you way back to a 1962 WT. The Dec 15, 1962 WT states quite candidly and explicitly:

"The care of God’s organization today is not in the hands of men who are inspired by God. They can make mistakes as any imperfect man can. Even the apostle Peter, who unquestionably had God’s spirit, made mistakes. On one occasion he denied Jesus Christ. On another he had to be rebuked by Paul for “not walking straight according to the truth of the good news.”(Gal. 2:14) God’s spirit inspired him to write Scripture, but it did not prevent him from being a free moral agent capable of making mistakes when he was not under inspiration. His mistake in the matter of applying Christian doctrine in his relationship with non-Jews does not argue that he did not have God’s spirit at all. The same is true today.

The men in Jehovah’s organization who prepare spiritual instruction for the Lord’s “sheep” diligently study the Scriptures to learn what God has put there for the instruction and guidance of his people. They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Since their comments on the Scriptures are not inspired, they can at times make mistakes. Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. But these students of God’s Word correct misunderstandings when they discover them. They are interested in the truth, not in self-justification. Their mistakes do not mean God’s spirit does not operate upon them; it does, just as it did upon Peter despite his mistakes.

Over the years the anointed remnant have published many things through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that they have learned from their ceaseless searching of God’s Word. Some of these things have made Jehovah’s witnesses distinctive from the religious organizations of Christendom that refuse to correct mistaken views, and they have proved to be basic Scriptural truths. Some others have, by further study, been revealed to be mistaken conclusions due to an unclear view of certain scriptures. As understanding of these scriptures became clearer the mistakes were corrected. Such corrections show their honesty and love for truth.

This sincere desire to search out accurate understanding of the things in God’s Word and this willingness to make changes when Scriptural evidence accumulates to indicate a need for them should instill confidence in the organization. It assures the Lord’s “sheep” that the organization will never knowingly misinform them.

God’s spirit operates upon his dedicated servants today, not to inspire them, but to move them gently in the direction of increased understanding. It permits them to make mistakes as they grow in understanding of God’s Word, but in time it helps them to see their mistakes, which they gladly correct. In this manner they progress along the path of the righteous ones, with the light of Scriptural understanding steadily getting “lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”(Prov. 4:1 This progress in Scriptural knowledge might be likened to an overcast sky that is gradually breaking up. As the openings between the clouds grow, more and more light comes through. Sometimes a truth is seen but then is obscured by a misunderstanding, just as a passing cloud momentarily obscures some rays of the sun. Later this truth returns in greater clarity when the misunderstanding is removed. God’s spirit is evident upon the organization from the progress it is making along the path of Scriptural truth."

PropMin wrote:

The point is, The WT quotes all the “cleansing” and “refining” scriptures they can find, apply them to changes they have made because of their own errors (while claiming all the while to be ‘spirit directed’) and yet this IS NOT what those scriptures mean!

Then can Propmin tell us what the scriptures mean? So far, he has merely posted Grace's interpretation of how individuals can be tested and refined. And indeed they can. But Propmin has to this point failed to prove where the prophecies that Jehovah's people will be refined and cleansed in the Lord's day are wrong.

All he has done is throw diversionary tactics at us thus far, as has the rest of his cronies. They fail to address anything pointed out on this thread. I can't help but think that they are at a loss for explanations to support their bogus views.

Of course, next Propmin or one of his cronies will quote us a WT from 1922 showing an inaccuracy taught by JWs almost 100 years ago that has since been corrected and thus proving the prophecies about the cleansing and refining are undergoing fulfillment. We look forward to it.

PropMin wrote:

And, also, The WT has as a primary foundation, a false premise of immense proportions; GODS NAME IS NOT “JEHOVAH”. An elementary understanding of history teaches this, and as an Org. totally dedicated to “accurate knowledge”(Remember John 17:3, the scripture that JW’s flash at the doors to show everyone else that they MUST know what a JW knows?) I would think you would know this.

It is not surprising that Propmin has returned to the vomit of Christendom. This is what former JWs must do in order to convince themselves that JWs are not the true religion. If God's name Jehovah is of the utmost importance as the Bible tells us over and over again then JWs must have the truth since they are the only ones proclaiming God's name and sanctifying it worldwide. Thus apostates must denounce that Name and many of them do a very good job of it I must say, Propmin being no exception.

PropMin wrote:

"This refinment does not come about by making mistakes and false prophecies!

Why would there be any need for refining and cleansing at all if there are no mistakes and no incorrect practices? Exactly what is it that God's people would need refining and cleansing for anyway?

Because it is a fact that Revelation tells us how the congregations would need refining and cleansing, even teaching and practicing the doctrines of Balaam, Nicholaus, and Jezebel, among other things. There was a need to get new garments (cleansing) and buy gold (refining).

Again Propmin and Don Cameron and other opposers argument is with the Bible prophecies not with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. The modern day organization of JWs didn't write the prophecies, they only helped fulfill them, much to the chagrin of apostates and opposers.

PropMin wrote:
The point is, The WT quotes all the “cleansing” and “refining” scriptures they can find, apply them to changes they have made because of their own errors (while claiming all the while to be ‘spirit directed’) and yet this IS NOT what those scriptures mean!

Then show us what it means. I hope its better than the copying and pasting of Grace's explanation. Thats already been refuted in great detail as it never really even addressed the prophecies at all.

DonCameron wrote:
Here once again is what the Governing Body explained through their 1/15/08 Watchtower article about the authority that Jesus gave the Society’s “anointed remnant “over all his belongings":
“When Christ inspected the 'slave' in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'(Read Matthew 24:45-47.)"

It looks to me that they are explaining that the Society did not have the authority over Jesus’ belongings until that appointment 1918-1919. And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority at THAT time, they would not have that authority at THIS time.

So now Don Cameron reaches down and goobles thru the stench of rotten discarded food and all the other refuse to bring out his already discredited book. And as he pulls it from the heap a piece of soiled toilet tissue clings to the cover. He removes the tissue and wipes off the excrement from his book in desperation.

Yes, I am glad to see Don Cameron making one last ditch effort to save his misconceived book of misinformation from the dump pyle. Because this gives further opportunity to show just how far he will go to try to hold on to his misinformed view of the WT's interpretation. I was waiting to present the final nail into his coffin and he has provided just that opportunity with his latest claims.

All we need do is ask one very simple question. Did the anointed Christians in the first century organization of God get an appointment by Christ over 'all his belongings'? How could they? The master had not yet arrived in the end of days after a long absence as prophecied. Therefore, since they had no appointment over all the master's belonging then using Don Cameron's reasoning they could not be God's organization and did not have any authority as such. Of course, anyone will recognize that claim as totally absurd. Yet that is the only conclusion we can reach using Cameron's reasoning. No appointment over 'all the belongings' thus no authority as God's organization and the FDS.

But does his reasoning coincide with scriptures?

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..."

Matt 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

Matt 28:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations..."

2 Cor 5:20 The anointed fds are "ambassadors substituting for Christ".(Sure seems like there would be a lot of authority in being ambassadors of Jesus in his absence.)

The authority to provide the food at the proper time, to act as ambassadors for Christ, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom was given to the FDS long before 1919? Jesus tells us that at some later date, when he arrived at the time of his final presence, the FDS would receive even more authority. Don Cameron apparently believes that if the FDS, found among JWs, did not receive that extra authority in 1919 then they have no authority today and therefore cannot be God's people. Clearly he has blundered.

Even if the extra authority was not given in 1919 and that authority is yet future, this does not change the fact that the FDS was given authority to give the food at the proper time, to act as ambassadors for Christ, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom. So the question is not whether the FDS, found only among JWs, received the extra authority in 1919 but rather are JWs providing the food at the proper time and preaching the good news as the FDS was authorized to do thus proving themselves to be God's people. Yes, the FDS have at least as much authority today or in the early 1900s, as they did in the first century. They were given that authority by the master when he left the earth.

Don Cameron wrote:

"If you can find something from the Governing Body where they have said what you are saying please let me know."

The November 1, 1984 wt states: "However, the apostle Paul introduced new ones into more than merely a local congregation. He said to the Ephesians:“One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called.”(Ephesians 4:4) There was only one “body” worldwide, not a number of scattered, locally independent congregations. Jesus was also referring to the living members of this “body” on earth when he spoke of a “faithful and discreet slave,” authorized to ‘feed’ the “domestics.”(Matthew 24:45-47) Individual Christians worldwide would have to recognize the AUTHORITY of this “slave” if they were to be ‘fed’ by it. This would result in an international association of Christians."

March 15, 1990 WT: "5 When did Jesus assign others to look after his belongings? This occurred after his resurrection. In his familiar words found at Matthew 28:19, 20, Christ first gave those who would become part of his composite house manager an extended assignment to teach and make disciples. By individually witnessing “to the most distant part of the earth,” the attendants would expand the missionary field that Jesus had begun to cultivate during his earthly ministry.(Acts 1: This involved their acting as “ambassadors substituting for Christ.” As “stewards of sacred secrets of God,” they would make disciples and would dispense spiritual food to them.—2 Corinthians 5:20; 1 Corinthians 4:1, 2.

DonCameron wrote:
"And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority at THAT time, they would not have that authority at THIS time."

How foolish such reasoning is and how blatantly unscriptural it is. Did the FDS have authority before an appointment over 'all the belongings'. According to the Bible they did. And according to the WT publications they did. Don Cameron should have said: "And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority (over all the belongings) at THAT time, they would still have authority at THIS time (as the FDS)."

As such we should listen to them and join them in this preaching of the good news of the Kingdom and all that it entails since Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones doing this.

once again Raymond Franz pointed out on page 165 of his “Crisis of Conscience.”
About Russell’s ‘wrong expectations’ about 1914 Russell had said,‘They certainly did have a stimulating and sanctifying effect upon thousands. All of whom accordingly can praise the Lord – even for the mistake."
Russell continued, "Many indeed can express themselves as being thankful to the Lord that the culmination of the Church’s hopes was not reached that the time we expected; and that we have further opportunities of perfecting holiness and of being participators with our Master in the further presentation of His Message to His people.”

I suspect that you don’t find anything wrong with Russell’s reasoning here because it seems very similar to yours.
But Ray Franz found something wrong with it. He expressed it this way:“Involving God and Christ with the mistakes made, provides a very convenient escape from having to shoulder the true responsibility for having falsely presented as “God’ dates” things that were not God’s dates but simply the product of unauthorized human speculation.
“Merit is found even in false predictions because of the ‘stimulating and sanctifying effect produced, so that one may ‘praise the Lord - even for the mistake.”

Franz continued…”One is reminded of the true prophet’s presentation of God’s words, saying:
“Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”– Isaiah 5:20

As for me, it seems strange to think that Jehovah needs to use error to motivate people to have the desire to do his will. And too, I cannot think of any examples where Jehovah or Jesus used things that were FALSE to “test for those who do not have real love for the TRUTH.” Can you think of any?
Instead of using something that is FALSE to test to see if someone loves the TRUTH, why not use something that is TRUE to test if they love the TRUTH?
What chapter and verse was that from the book of Ray? I am not familiar with that book and I can't seem to find that in my Bible.

God's people have often times had wrong expectations about a matter and had to be corrected. Those wrong expectations and later corrections have served as a test for God's people. There are indeed Bible examples and we have listed a few of them.

But there was no mistake on God's part nor has the WT publications ever tried to blame Jehovah or Jesus for their mistakes as Don Cameron parroting Ray Franz seems to be saying. It is just more of the same old bogus bunk from Don and Ray, as Don desperately tries to salvage what he can from his misconceived book.

PropMin wrote:
Well, since dubya' has taken a liking to spamming, I think I'll join in:
Your fundamental flaw, arising from the presumptuousness of a century of WT leadership, is that they claim:

1. The WT is NOT the opinions of men
2. "jehovah" is the leader of the "theocratic organization"
3. Only "gods organization" is directed by gods spirit.
Then, YOU claim that corrected WT error is a fullfillment of prophecies of "cleansing" and "refinement".

We must therefore conclude, that your god 'jehovah':
1. Intentionally leads his people into error, by using his Spirit to instruct the Pres of the WT (prior to 1976) and the GB (after 1976)to teach falsehood, and even physically damaging doctrines.

Another problem with THIS, is that the "theocratic organization" also claims to be the "only true religion".
Can we therefore conclude that the WT/JW's are "the true religion", because 'jehovah' leads THEM alone into error after error after error after error after error?
What you, and other false WT teachers over the years have attempted to do, is take a few scriptures showing that followers of Christ will be refinined by trail and temptation, much as Christ himself was, and apply these scriptures to your own ever changing doctrinal folly.
YOU, and a century of WT carpetbaggers, insist the word of the WT be followed at all times (under the veiled threat of censure), even if it is wrong, while claiming this 'word' is ALWAYS spirit directed.

I see no reason to think that Jehovah intentionally leads his people into error. I have never seen that claim in a WT publication. I am sure that Jehovah allows his people to make mistakes. And I am sure that he corrects them, thus refining and cleansing them. But the WT has never laid any blame on Jehovah for their mistakes.

1 Samuel 16:13 "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers: and the Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on David FROM THAT DAY FORWARD. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah."


That scripture just has to be wrong. Was David spirit directed when he was watching Bathsheba from his rooftop? How about when he committed adultery with her? The Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on David from that day forward? What? I guess the spirit got it wrong on the day David committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband murdered and the days before that when he was lusting over her.

That sort of reminds me of the faithful and discreet slave that Jesus is using today. Would it be proper to say of that slave when anointed: "the Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on the slave from that day forward." But what about their erroneous teachings that they later had to correct? NO way the spirit of Jehovah could have been on them!

And yet, that is what the scriptures said of David. And yet the scriptures did say that God's people in the Lord's day would undergo and cleansing and refining. Hmmmmm. Could it just be so that the scriptures and prophecies are correct? Do I believe the scriptures or the apostates reasonings? Let me think.

Propmin wrote:

How utterly ludicrous; this is what happens to a brain when too much WT has been applied.
The WT doesn't HAVE TO SAY 'IT'; THEIR HISTORY PROVES IT.

You cannot reconcile these very simple things, I don't care HOW often you attempt to twist scripture, and use the faults of men past.
FACT: David had personal failings.
FACT: David DID NOT teach all the Israelites that it was necessary for them to believe it was OK for him to commit adultry, under the threat of censure.
FACT: David didn't teach blatant falsehoods as TRUTH, and force the Israelites to accept.
personal failings VS. teaching falsehood as truth; know the difference.

For example, I could care less that JF Rutherford (one of dubya's idols) was an alcoholic, and ranting and raving lunatic. I really dont'; he reaped what he sowed as we all do, and will. I DO CARE, that he taught lies and falsehoods as total truth in Gods name, and led thousands, and now millions, into religious lies and error after error after error.
Personal failings vs. false lying teachings taught as "truth" that are always changing; know the difference, lil' dubya'.
I could go on and on, but the point is made; at least to those listening.

SO that we don't loose sight of the stubborn FACTS:
The WT has said:
1. The WT is NOT the opinions of men
2. "jehovah" is the leader of the "theocratic organization"
3. Only "gods organization" is directed by gods spirit.
4. JW's (ONLY under the WT) are the ONLY TRUE RELIGION.

Then, YOU claim that corrected WT error is a fullfillment of prophecies of "cleansing" and "refinement".
We must therefore conclude, that your god 'jehovah':
1. Intentionally leads his people into error, by using his Spirit to instruct the Pres of the WT (prior to 1976) and the GB (after 1976)to teach falsehood, and even physically damaging doctrines.
WE can also conclude that the WT/JW's are "the true religion", because 'jehovah' leads THEM ALONE into error after error after error after error after error.
We can ALSO say, that the FACTS show the "fds" in practice, to be nothing more than the few little Napoleons that run the WT.
Its really a shame that I have to sign off for a few days now. I'll be meeting with real friends on holliday to celebrate Christs memorial, on the correct day, in the scriptural fashion, unlike the false hood and error that passes for "truth" and "acurate knowledge" in the KH and the WT, such NOT PARTAKING.


Yes it is a great theory that Propmin teaches. Too bad it doesn't coincide with Bible prophecy and is therefore bogus reasoning. Especially do Propmin contradicts Rev 2-3.

Jesus himself showed that the 7 congregations or God's organization in the Lord's day would have many problems even holding to the teachings of Balaam and Nicholaus. And yet he continued to walk among these 7 golden lampstands, the 7 congregations, God's organization. And he made available for them new garments and refined gold. JWs allowed themselves to be clothed with those garments and bought that refined gold, thus allowing Jesus to cleanse and refine them.

It is only the sect of Propmin that teaches that JWs believe that Jehovah has led them into error. Not a teaching of JWs and not in the WT publications.

And no one is 'forced' to accept the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. If a person doesn't believe what JWs teach they do not have to become one and they are free to leave if they decide they don't agree with them. If a person believes the FDS is not among JWs then they may bow out at any point. But the fact is that even the majority of JWs who are dfed for one reason or another still believe that JWs have the truth and want to return when they get their life straight. I wonder why that is?

Never has the WT blamed God nor claimed that. Note this from the July 1, 1979 WT:

"GUIDANCE IN OUR DAY

14 When we look at what has been published by Jehovah’s organization through the pages of The Watchtower and other publications for the past century, we find wholesome spiritual food in abundance. Early in this period, basic Bible truths were made clear, and they remain clear until this day. Our viewpoint on hell, Trinity, purgatory, the soul, where the dead are, the ransom, the resurrection, earth’s destiny, the Kingdom and other key doctrines has undergone very little change during 100 years. The truth has always been truth, though, at times, our understanding of it has required adjustment.—Compare John 16:13.

15 ... Jehovah’s Witnesses from earliest times in the past century have understood that they must be willing to modify and correct their views of doctrine, practice and organizational procedure when it became apparent that Jehovah’s spirit was directing them toward such adjustments. As acknowledged by Bryan Wilson in the magazine New Society, Jehovah’s Witnesses have “always maintained that continued study of the Bible might lead to fuller knowledge, and on previous occasions errors in prophetic interpretation have been admitted.”

16 Perhaps the area in which it truly requires willingness to readjust is the field of Bible prophecy....

17 ... during these “last days,” have erroneous views about this system’s end or telos (Greek) been held in advance by some of Jehovah’s servants? Yes, they have...."

Teleologist wrote:
I think ThirdWitness is on the right track when he makes the core teachings of JW's the issue.
If the core teachings he keeps repeating are in fact true and JW's are the only one's teaching them then that would be a valid reason for becoming a JW rather than some other religion and that would be the case even if the Watchtower's teaching on being appointed over all of Christ's belongings in 1919 was false. If giving spiritual food at the right time was mainly focused on the core teachings of JW's and these core teachings are correct then the WTS is doing a good job.

Wow look. Some honesty unlike Don Cameron who says that these truths do not matter.

Teleologist wrote:
as I have pointed out many times on this thread, one can believe these basic Bible truths and not be allowed to get baptized as a JW. And a JW can be disfellowshipped as an apostate even if they believe these basic Bible truths. So, it is dishonest on your part to cite "clear" Bible truths that have undergone very little change during the past 100 years as what identifies true Christians today when in fact more is required. A JW must also accept more recent teachings from the governing body that are not so "clear". You completely ignore this.

No dishonesty. And no ignoring of this.

Of cours there are Biblical laws to follow or else you will be removed from the congregation. Fornication, the most popular, also causing division which I suppose you are referring to. Thats in 1 Cor 5 and is scriptural. Thats just another identifying mark of God's people. They keep the congregation clean from practicing wrongdoers and apostates that would be detrimental to the spiritual health of those in the congregation.

Thanks for adding that proof as to who God's people really are and thanks for the honesty. Could you perhaps talk to Don Cameron and straighten him out. Maybe you could encourage him to be a little more honest in his posts and misconceived book of misinformation.

Don Cameron wrote in his book advertisement:

"No False Teachings or Prophecies - Why Not?"
Captives of a Concept
by Don Cameron

According to the Watchtower's official teaching, Jesus Christ acknowledged the Society as his "faithful and discreet slave" organization and therefore appointed those associated with it "over all his earthly interests" in the spring of 1919 (In fulfillment of Matthew 24:45-47) because they were the only religion he found that had been providing "proper and timely spiritual food" during his absence.- See paragraph 4 on page 161 of "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life."

The Governing Body realizes that Jesus would never have appointed the Society over anything if the spiritual food they had been providing "down till 1919" contained any false teachings or prophecies. And so they have HAD TO ELIMINATE EVERY TRACE of the organization's teachings and prophecies that were ever false.

Is this really so or just another bald face lie by Don Cameron? Has the governing body attempted to 'ELIMINATE EVERY TRACE' of what JWs said or taught that was false? An examination of Jehovah's Witnesses own history book published by the Watchtower Society will show us the answer.

The following quotes are from the book, Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, published in 1993. The abbreviation for the book in the WT CD library is JV.

Page 201: "For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was God’s stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods.(Isa. 19:19) But Jehovah’s Witnesses have abandoned the idea that an Egyptian pyramid has anything to do with true worship.(See “Watchtower” issues of November 15 and December 1, 192"

Page 76: Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book “Salvation,” published in 1939, explains:“The Hebrew words ‘Beth Sarim’ mean ‘House of the Princes’; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth.”

[Footnote]
At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of this system of things and would serve as “princes in all the earth,” in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16. This view was adjusted in 1950, when further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.—See “The Watchtower,” November 1, 1950, pages 414-17.

Page 141-2: The Bible Students were well aware of the many prophecies of restoration that were delivered to ancient Israel by God’s prophets.(Jer. 30:18; 31:8-10; Amos 9:14, 15; Rom. 11:25, 26) Down till 1932, they understood these to apply specifically to the natural Jews. Thus, they believed that God would show Israel favor again, gradually restoring the Jews to Palestine, opening their eyes to the truth regarding Jesus as Ransomer and Messianic King, and using them as an agency for extending blessings to all nations. With this understanding, Brother Russell spoke to large Jewish audiences in New York as well as in Europe on the subject “Zionism in Prophecy,” and Brother Rutherford, in 1925, wrote the book Comfort for the Jews.

Page 47: Barbour and Russell jointly published Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World. This 196-page book discussed the subjects of restitution and Biblical time prophecies....It presented the view that Jesus Christ’s invisible presence dated from the autumn of 1874.

Page 133: This was influenced by the belief that the seventh millennium of human history had begun in 1873 and that a period of divine disfavor (of equal length to a former period considered to be one of favor) upon natural Israel would end in 1878. The chronology was flawed because of relying on an inaccurate rendering of Acts 13:20 in the King James Version, belief that there was a transcription error at 1 Kings 6:1, and failure to take into account Biblical synchronisms in the dating of reigns of the kings of Judah and of Israel.

Page 632 footnotes: Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.(37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 187 for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end.

Page 635: In The Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914), Brother Russell wrote:“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles. Our expectation, true or false, is that there will be wonderful manifestations of Divine judgments against all unrighteousness, and that this will mean the breaking up of many institutions of the present time, if not all.” He emphasized that he did not expect the “end of the world” in 1914 and that the earth abides forever, but that the present order of things, of which Satan is ruler, is to pass away."

Page 138-9: By 1914, the faithful pre-Christian servants of God had not been resurrected on earth as princely representatives of the Messianic King, as had been expected, nor had the remaining ones of the “little flock” joined Christ in the heavenly Kingdom in that year....

However, at that time the Bible Students felt that the setting up of the Kingdom, its full establishment in heaven, would not take place until the final members of Christ’s bride were glorified. A real milestone was reached, therefore, in 1925, when The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article “Birth of the Nation.” It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born—established—in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth...

Page 632: In the lecture “Millions Now Living Will Never Die,” delivered by J. F. Rutherford on March 21, 1920, at the Hippodrome in New York City, attention was directed to the year 1925. On what basis was it thought to be significant? In a booklet published in that same year, 1920, it was pointed out that if 70 full Jubilees were calculated from what was understood to be the date when Israel entered the Promised Land (instead of starting after the last typical Jubilee before the Babylonian exile and then counting to the beginning of the Jubilee year at the end of the 50th cycle), this could point to the year 1925. On the basis of what was said there, many hoped that perhaps the remaining ones of the little flock would receive their heavenly reward by 1925. This year also was associated with expectations for resurrection of faithful pre-Christian servants of God with a view to their serving on earth as princely representatives of the heavenly Kingdom. If that really occurred, it would mean that mankind had entered an era in which death would cease to be master, and millions then living could have the hope of never dying off the earth. What a happy prospect! Though mistaken, they eagerly shared it with others.

Page 633: This later led to the idea—sometimes stated as a possibility, sometimes more firmly—that since the seventh millennium of human history would begin in 1975, events associated with the beginning of Christ’s Millennial Reign might start to take place then.

Did the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses on these matters prove to be correct? They certainly did not err in believing that God would without fail do what he had promised. But some of their time calculations and the expectations that they associated with these gave rise to serious disappointments.

Page 142-3: The very first issue of the Watch Tower alluded to Matthew 24:45-47 when it stated that the aim of the publishers of that magazine was to be alert to events in connection with Christ’s presence and to give spiritual “meat in due season” to the household of faith. But the editor of the magazine was not himself claiming to be the faithful and discreet slave, or the “faithful and wise servant”(according to the rendering of the King James Version).

Thus, in the October-November 1881 issue of the magazine, C. T. Russell stated:“We believe that every member of this body of Christ is engaged in the blessed work, either directly or indirectly, of giving meat in due season to the household of faith.‘Who then is that faithful and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household,’ to give them meat in due season? Is it not that ‘little flock’ of consecrated servants who are faithfully carrying out their consecration vows—the body of Christ—and is not the whole body individually and collectively, giving the meat in due [s]eason to the household of faith—the great company of believers? Blessed is that servant (the whole body of Christ) whom his Lord when he has come (Gr. elthon) shall find so doing.‘Verily, I say unto you, that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.’”

Over a decade later, however, Brother Russell’s wife publicly expressed the idea that Russell himself was the faithful and wise servant. The view that she voiced concerning the identity of the ‘faithful servant’ came to be generally held by the Bible Students for some 30 years. Brother Russell did not reject their view, but he personally avoided making such an application of the text, emphasizing his opposition to the idea of a clergy class commissioned to teach God’s Word in contrast to a lay class that was not thus commissioned. The understanding expressed by Brother Russell in 1881 that the faithful and wise servant was in reality a collective servant, made up of all the members of the spirit-anointed body of Christ on earth, was reaffirmed in The Watch Tower of February 15, 1927.—Compare Isaiah 43:10.

Page 629-30: Doctrinal Views in Need of Refinement

Jehovah’s Witnesses freely acknowledge that their understanding of God’s purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years. The fact that knowledge of God’s purpose is progressive means that there must be change. It is not that God’s purpose changes, but the enlightenment that he continuously grants to his servants calls for adjustments in their viewpoint.

...

As might be expected, when changes have required the setting aside of formerly cherished views, that has been a test for some. Furthermore, not all adjustments in understanding have come simply, in one step. Because of imperfection, there is at times a tendency to go to one extreme or another before the correct position is discerned. This may take time. Some who are inclined to be critical have stumbled over this.

More on the FDS page 626:

Clearing Up the Identity of the “Faithful and Wise Servant”

Many who were sifted out at that time clung to the view that a single individual, Charles Taze Russell, was the “faithful and wise servant” foretold by Jesus at Matthew 24:45-47 (KJ), which servant would distribute spiritual food to the household of faith. Particularly following his death, The Watch Tower itself set forth this view for a number of years. In view of the prominent role that Brother Russell had played, it appeared to the Bible Students of that time that this was the case. He did not personally promote the idea, but he did acknowledge the apparent reasonableness of the arguments of those who favored it. He also emphasized, however, that whoever the Lord might use in such a role must be humble as well as zealous to bring glory to the Master, and that if the one chosen by the Lord failed, he would be replaced by another.

However, as the light of truth progressively shone even more brightly after Brother Russell’s death, and as the preaching that Jesus had foretold became even more extensive, it became evident that the “faithful and wise servant”(KJ), or “faithful and discreet slave”(NW), had not passed off the scene when Brother Russell died. In 1881, Brother Russell himself had expressed the view that that “servant” was made up of the entire body of faithful spirit-anointed Christians. He saw it as being a collective servant, a class of persons who were united in doing God’s will.(Compare Isaiah 43:10.) This understanding was reaffirmed by the Bible Students in 1927. Jehovah’s Witnesses today recognize the Watchtower magazine and kindred publications to be the ones used by the faithful and discreet slave to dispense spiritual food. They do not claim that this slave class is infallible, but they do view it as the one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things.


Dec 15, 1962 WT:

Over the years the anointed remnant have published many things through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that they have learned from their ceaseless searching of God’s Word. Some of these things have made Jehovah’s witnesses distinctive from the religious organizations of Christendom that refuse to correct mistaken views, and they have proved to be basic Scriptural truths. Some others have, by further study, been revealed to be mistaken conclusions due to an unclear view of certain scriptures. As understanding of these scriptures became clearer the mistakes were corrected. Such corrections show their honesty and love for truth.
end of the quotes

In view of the black and white evidence in print for all to see what can we conclude about Don Cameron's statement concerning the governing body:

"And so they have HAD TO ELIMINATE EVERY TRACE of the organization's teachings and prophecies that were ever false."

It is nothing but an outright blatant lie. And why not? His entire book is written on false premises, misinformation, and yes, even outright lies.

He and those who listen to him are captives of Don Cameron's lies and misconcepts. It has been proven to be a fact and does not require any speculation or conjecture whatsoever.

What say Don Cameron? How will he defend his proven blatant lies, misconcepts, and misinformation? Will he do the honest thing and renounce his book as a book of lies, exaggerations, misconceptions, and misinformation?

Or will he simply ask Topsy, or others he considers susceptible to his misinformation, a question trying to influence them away from the truth?

I posted this on another board in 2002:

We can be thankful that Christ and Jehovah look at hearts, not
brains. As Ps 7:9 says: "And may you [God] establish the righteous
one; And God as righteous is testing out heart and kidneys." Even
King David prayed that God read his heart and refine it. (Ps 26:2)
And as Jeremiah said: "Jehovah of armies is judging with
righteousness; he is examining the kidneys and the heart." (Jer
11:20) Jehovah confirmed this in Jeremiah 17:10-"I, Jehovah, am
searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one
according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings."
Similarly, Jesus says in Revelation 2:23-"all the congregations will
know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will
give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds." Jesus even
condemned ones for not expressing "justice and mercy and
faithfulness"-conditions of the heart. (Mt 23:23)

So when Jesus appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" (Mt 24:45-
7) "over all his belongings", he was not primarily looking at the
brain. Rather, he was "examining the kidneys and the heart". The ones
that proved faithful to him he could use, for these demonstrated that
they were *teachable and leadable*. That's why "the path of the
righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and
lighter until the day is firmly established" (Pr 4:18 ).
They demonstrate that their heart is in a teachable
condition so they can learn greater light from the Bible.

Agape,
Jim


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Great post Jimspace.....it pretty much sums up the whole last 5 yrs or so for me into one post....(well maybe more than 5 yrs...maybe my whole time in the truth).....as does this whole thread ...

....I mean, how important (and simple) it is to recognize who Christ's Spiritual Brothers (The Faithful and Discreet Slave) are ....

I really wish I hadn't had to learn so many hard lessons....

I really wish I had not been so inactive for so long...

that I hadn't become so................oh well......

we can all only go forward


3W...thanks again for your efforts...great thread...


you know...it reminds me of how baffling it is, (to me) that anyone with even a tiny bit of objectivity can't see the overall pictire

it reminds me of the "veil" in 2nd cor 3 and 4

it's not like there are alot of "competing" groups out there that have the "identifying" features that the anointed remnant of Christs spiritual brothers have ......

so whats the problem?....

where is this OTHER group??....

if there is no "other" group, ...then who were all those "letters" in the 2nd half of the Christian Greek Scriptures addressed to????

wake up people........Jehovah obviously wanted us to have and excersize the kind of humility that is required to associate with, and to " put up with one another" and to support an arrangement.....a "Congregational" arrangement....

and that arrangement is quite obviously the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses



This message was last edited at

Agrarian and JS, thanks for the input. I am going to try to put the rest of the Don Cameron expose here and what he said so it will be in one place for quick reference. Here goes.

Don Cameron wrote:
Especially so as I was then able to notice whenever the current Governing Body misrepresents the organization’s history – as they do in the insert on page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book.
It would seem that Witnesses are either unaware that their Governing Body does this sort of thing from time to time or else you just don’t care. I cared – a lot!
This statement by Mr. Cameron comes from this thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

I would like to challenge the statement by Don Cameron above and ask for proof. So far, whenever Don Cameron has made such a statement it has been proven to be false and misleading. Here is what the inset says on page 60 of the Proclaimers book:

“Look Out for 1914!”

"When World War I broke out in 1914,“The World,” then a leading newspaper in New York City, stated in its magazine section:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy....‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling evangelists, who, representing this strange creed [associated with Russell], have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’”—“The World Magazine,” August 30, 1914." end of quote

Cameron wrote: It would seem that Witnesses are either unaware that their Governing Body does this sort of thing from time to time or else you just don’t care. I cared – a lot!

If Witnesses are not aware of the history of the organization in the early 1900s it can only be because they failed to read the Proclaimers book and other WT publications because it has been clearly laid out in that book and others. Nothing has been hidden as Don Cameron repeatedly likes to claim.

But in 1984 I came to realize that according to the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 I SHOULD have based my decision on what the organization had been teaching and doing down till 1919.

If I had made my own inspection of what Russell and Rutherford had provided in the way of spiritual food down till that time I would have known to stay away from such a religion no matter what they are teaching today.

Lord: Why didn't you listen to my faithful and discreet slave. You knew they had the teachings correct about who I was and who my son was, about hellfire, and the trinity, war, and brotherhood, the kingdom and paradise, why didn't you join them in proclaiming this good news.

Cameron: "I...based my decision on what the organization had been teaching and doing down till 1919...no matter what they are teaching today..."

Now lets imagine Don Cameron living in the first century.

Lord: Why didn't you listen to my faithful and discreet slave....why didn't you join them in proclaiming this good news.

Cameron: "I...based my decision on what the organization had been teaching and doing down till 33CE.... They were teaching that Jesus' would set up the kingdom in their day right there in Jerusalem, or at least he would return before John died. And they had disowned Christ and showed their faithlessness at the time of his death. I thus stayed away from that "religion no matter what they were teaching" at a later time or after 33CE.

Its very illogical reasoning.

I was hoping someone was going to ask me about my comment about that insert on page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book.

That is where the Governing Body correctly quoted the August 30,1914 “The Word Magazine” where it said…
“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”

My Problem: I have not been able to find that prophecy.
If you know where Russell had foretold the beginning of a war that would break out in Europe in 1914 please let me know where you found it. I would then apologize for suggesting the Governing Body has not told the truth in this instance.

Have you ever seen the title of that magazine article? The insert doesn’t mention it. You can see it on pages 88 and 90 of my book. Here it is…
END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914
‘Millennial Dawners’ 25-Year Prophecy
I went back 25 years to 1889 and found the above 25-Year prophecy on page 99 of “The Time Is At Hand.”…
“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.– 1889 Edition

And so THAT was Russell’s 25-year prophecy. The only problem with it is that it didn’t come true. Not a single kingdom came to its end in 1914 let alone all of them.
I can understand how a secular magazine could have a mistake about what Russell had foretold. But I don’t understand why the Governing Body quotes the magazine’s mistake, AS IF IT WASN’T A MISTAKE. Their quote in the “Proclaimers book” misleads the reader to believe that Russell’s prophecy came true when the World War began in 1914.

Something else I found is where Russell had foretold the exact OPPOSITE of what actually happened in 1914. Here is what he said in his July 15, 1895 Watchtower…
“Bear in mind that the end of 1914 is NOT the date for the BEGINNING, but the END of the time of trouble.”

This is not just a one-time isolated misuse of the above magazine article. On page 17 of the October 8, 1973 Awake! is the cover of the article but with something missing. The Governing Body cut off the title so that the reader cannot see what 25-year prophecy the article is referring to (i.e. END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914).
“Ros” over on “Channel C” made the following comment about when the Watchtower writers do this sore of thing..
“How do such discrepancies get past the editors of the Watchtower? Are their writers so unfamiliar with their own history as published in their own literature?

Or [have] even those who write the [literature] themselves become subject to the mind-alterating effects of their own indoctrination?

“Otherwise, how can such blatant misrepresentations be defined as anything less than dishonest?” I think that is a fair question.

One more thing ThirdWitness: I noticed that you brought up Russell’s prophecy(s) about the Gentile Times ending in 1914. But that was not the 25-year prophecy the article was referring to. That was a 38-year prophecy that he began to proclaim in 1876.

Reminder: If you know where Russell had foretold the terrific war outbreak in Europe in 1914 please let me know.

It is absolutely astounding that Don Cameron would say this: "Especially so as I was then able to notice whenever the current Governing Body misrepresents the organization’s history – as they do in the insert on page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book." based on merely what he presented above.

We have already exposed many of Don Cameron's misleading statements. Lets examine his claim above in detail and see if we can determine who really is the dishonest one here. Will it be Don Cameron once again? Lets see.

So Don Cameron claims that because the article in the World Magazine is quoted then the WTS is therefore trying to deceive its readers and paint a new history. Nevermind that the very next chapter beginning on the very next page tells of the dissappointments the Bible Students had as their expectations for 1914 and what they thought would happen were unfulfilled. Lets just disregard that all together and claim that the WTS is trying to hide their history as if the book ended right there on page 60.

Now to the article in the World Magazine. The article is being quoted by the WTS to prove one thing and one thing only: That the Bible Students did indeed point to the year of 1914 as a marked year. We have WT sources making that claim of course. But ones like Don Cameron might be inclined to say, "Hey, just because the WTS said that the Bible Students pointed to 1914 as a marked year, don't make it so. Where is the evidence outside the WT publications?" The World Magazine thus provides evidence apart from the WT publications that JWs did indeed say, "Look out for 1914".

Now did everything they expected happen? Why yes, it did..... Oh wait,Thats what Don Cameron tries to make us think that the WT publications say. In reality, the WT publications openly admit that what Russell and the Bible Students expected did not happen entirely. As I said, the fact is that the very next chapter beginning on the very next page after the quote from the World Magazine tells of those expectations that were unfulfilled.

Now Don Cameron wants to see the prophecy that Russell made that foretold "The terrific war outbreak in Europe". And Cameron wants us to harmonize the World Magazine with the WT publications. Why? Because the WTS uses the World Magazine to prove that Russell pointed to 1914 as a time of trouble before the war began? And he wants us to critique the words of the World Magazine? OK.

I would guess that the World Magazine when it mentions 'the terrific war' is referring to just what its then say in the article:

“For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’[Jehovah’s witnesses]. . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.

“‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’”--End of quote from World Magazine.

You will note that the World Magazine refers to 'the Day of Wrath'. Of course Russell believed that Day of Wrath would begin in 1914. But we know that it didn't began then and we know that the WTS admits that the expectations were incorrect.

As we know many apostates and opposers claim that the Bible Students were not looking for Christ and therefore couldn't have been on the watch since they beleived his invisible presence began in 1874. But what the World Magazine does show that many opposers deny is that JWs were indeed looking for God's Kingdom in 1914. We know this to be true because of the WT publications before Oct, 1914.

March 1880 WT:“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:
“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Were the Bible Students on the watch for God's Kingdom?

Don Cameron wrote:

This is not just a one-time isolated misuse of the above magazine article. On page 17 of the October 8, 1973 Awake! is the cover of the article but with something missing. The Governing Body cut off the title so that the reader cannot see what 25-year prophecy the article is referring to (i.e. END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914)..

Cameron here pretends that he knows something that the average JW does not know. He deceitfully tries to make the readers think that the WTS cut the article off because they are attempting to hide that Russell thought it would be the end of all kingdoms in 1914.
But since the WTS freely admits that Russell thought that then where is the cover up?

Don Cameron wrote:

“Ros” over on “Channel C” made the following comment about when the Watchtower writers do this sore of thing..
“How do such discrepancies get past the editors of the Watchtower? Are their writers so unfamiliar with their own history as published in their own literature?
Or [have] even those who write the [literature] themselves become subject to the mind-alterating effects of their own indoctrination?
“Otherwise, how can such blatant misrepresentations be defined as anything less than dishonest?” I think that is a fair question.

I don't. Because within the question is falsehoods. For example, Cameron uses the term 'blatant misrepresentations' yet no blatant misrepresentations are shown for us.'How do discrepancies get past' yet no discrepancies are shown?

I perceive that Don Cameron has nothing to show for his claims that the gb have tried to hide the history of JWs organization with lies thus he has no alternative but to knit pickingly make things up.

Something else I found is where Russell had foretold the exact OPPOSITE of what actually happened in 1914. Here is what he said in his July 15, 1895 Watchtower…

“Bear in mind that the end of 1914 is NOT the date for the BEGINNING, but the END of the time of trouble.”

Here I SUPPOSE Mr. Cameron wants to lead us to believe that Russell was saying that 1914 would be the end of the times of trouble thus nothing would happen in 1914. We all know that Don Cameron is attempting to deceitfully mislead his readers once again. Because Don Cameron himself has previously told us that the Bible Students believed that Christ's presence began in 1874. And that his presence would culminate in 1914 when God's Kingdom took full power over the earth thus bringing on Armageddon, the greatest upheavel of all time.

I'm sure Don Cameron must surely be aware of the Watch Tower of December 1, 1912, since he has studied so dauntingly the WT publications between 1876 and 1919. It stated:

“The lease of power to the Gentiles may end in October, 1914, or in October, 1915. And the period of INTENSE STRIFE AND ANARCHY ‘SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION' may be the final ending of the Gentile Times or the beginning of Messiah’s reign.”

Don Cameron, you wiley ole apostate you!

RE:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”
Is the Governing Body’s misuse of this quote from the August 30, 1914 “The World Magazine” simply an honest mistake on their part that they will be willing correct if it were brought to their attention?

One way to find out would be to write to the Governing Body and respectively ask them about this matter.
If they thank you for bringing this to their attention you will know that they really are concerned about the truth. But if they send a letter to your elders and tell them to investigate you and your reason for writing such a letter? What might that mean?

Another suggestion is to bring this matter to the attention of your local elders. Will they care if they have been misled to believe something that is not true? Perhaps you (the reader) are an elder? Do you care?

What about the rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Will any of them care if their Governing Body hasn’t always told them the truth about the organization’s history? I know that so-called “apostates” care. Unfortunately their caring is one of the things that got them disfellowshipped.

Why would we have to write and ask the governing body when it is all quoted and explained for us right here in the 1975 yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses:

"A typical press reaction of the time appeared in The World, then a leading New York city newspaper. Its Sunday magazine section of August 30, 1914, contained the article “End of All Kingdoms in 1914.” There it was stated, in part:

(Beginning of quote from World Magazine)“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students,’ best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’...

“Rev. Charles T. Russell is the man who has been propounding this interpretation of the Scriptures since 1874....‘In view of this strong Bible evidence,’ Rev. Russell wrote in 1889,‘we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.’...

“But to say that the trouble must culminate in 1914—that was peculiar. For some strange reason, perhaps because Rev. Russell has a very calm, higher mathematics style of writing instead of flamboyant soap box manners, the world in general has scarcely taken him into account. The students over in his ‘Brooklyn Tabernacle’ say that this was to be expected, that the world never did listen to divine warnings and never will, until after the day of trouble is past....

“And in 1914 comes war, the war which everybody dreaded but which everybody thought could not really happen. Rev. Russell is not saying ‘I told you so’; and he is not revising the prophecies to suit the current history. He and his students are content to wait—to wait until October, which they figure to be the real end of 1914.”End of quote from World Magazine).

I take note that the WT did not try to hide the title of the article:“End of All Kingdoms in 1914.”

Also take note that the statements of Brother Russell in 1889 (25 years earlier) is quoted leaving us no doubt what the World Magazine was referring to.

I am once again astounded at the lengths opposers will go to in hopes of discrediting and misleading JWs with misinformation.

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And let me take you to the March 15, 1955 WT:

"A typical public-press reaction to the situation was published August 30, 1914, by a leading New York city newspaper, The World.“End of All Kingdoms in 1914” was the arresting headline of a long feature article in that journal’s Sunday magazine section (pages 4 and 17), from which we quote:

“According to the Calculations of Rev. Russell’s ‘International Bible Students,’ This Is the ‘Time of Trouble’ Spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, the Year 1914 Predicted in the Book ‘The Time Is at Hand,’ of which Four Million Copies Have Been Sold, as the Date of the Downfall of the Kingdoms of Earth.

“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’, best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’. . . Although millions of people must have listened to these evangelists,. . . and although their propaganda has been carried on through religious publications and a secular press service involving hundreds of country newspapers, as well as through lectures, debates, study classes, and even moving pictures, the average man does not know that such a movement as the ‘Millennial Dawn’ exists.. . . Rev. Charles T. Russell is the man who has been propounding this interpretation of the Scriptures since 1874.. . .‘In view of this strong Bible evidence,’ Rev. Russell wrote in 1889,‘we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.’. . . But to say that the trouble must culminate in 1914—that was peculiar. For some strange reason, perhaps because Rev. Russell has a very calm, higher-mathematics style of writing instead of flamboyant soap box manners, the world in general has scarcely taken him into account. The students over in his ‘Brooklyn Tabernacle’ say that this was to be expected, that the world never did listen to divine warnings and never will, until after the day of trouble is past.. . . And in 1914 comes war, the war which everybody dreaded but which everybody thought could not really happen. Rev. Russell is not saying ‘I told you so’; and he is not revising the prophecies to suit the current history. He and his students are content to wait—to wait until October, which they figure to be the real end of 1914.” end of quote from World Magazine.

...The Watch Tower Society of witnesses for Jehovah was right in its thirty-year public campaign of warning the Gentile nations of the fateful year 1914....Many also INACCURATELY thought that the world war which began in 1914 would merge into the “battle of the great day of God Almighty,” Armageddon, and thus cleanse the earth of all opposition to righteousness." END OF QUOTE FROM WT ARTICLE.

So there you have the entire explanation including the title of the article in the World Magazine (not hidden by the WTS) and the statement that their thinking 1914 would bring Armageddon was INACCURATE.

Should we also write the gb and ask them to correct the World Magazine in saying that Russell is/was a Reverend? Don Cameron's claim is just plain wrong, even ignorant, even silly. In retrospect its really not even worth the time to expose his misinformation on this subject, but, oh well, its done now.

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DonCameron wrote:
Unfortunately that doesn’t show where Russell had foretold the war that broke out in Europe in 1914. If you can’t find it either then just let me know. I promise I won’t hold a “I told you so” over your head

Well thats already been done and its already been found. The World Magazine did that for us.

Obviously to any one with reasoning abilities the World Magazine was not saying that Russells statements about all Kingdoms coming to an end had already come true just because there was a Great War. Do we imagine the editors of the magazine to be total idiots. I guess that is what Don Cameron would like for us to believe. But Obviously they are talking about Russells statements to look out for 1914 because it will be troublesome times.

No one thought that the end of all Kingdoms would simple come by a zap from God's Kingdom so that they would be instantly gone without strife, anarchy, or war? According to what Russell had written thru the years it would be a time of great distress. I would suppose that the World Magazine had read some of Russell's writings and had seen that he had said there would be a time of distress, strife, and war, like never before in 1914. The terrific war outbreak in Europe, The Great War or World War I, was the fulfillment for the intial part of what Russell had said about 1914. Thus the statement by the World Magazine, "The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy." But as it turned out, the final part of what Russell had said did not happen because as we know all the Kingdom's did not end.

I know Cameron will not accept this because he wants a WT in 1889 that comes right out and says,'There will be a great war in Europe in 1914.' His thinking ability has been clouded by the words of Ray Franz and Carl Johnson. But by refusing to be reasonable everyone can see, yet AGAIN, that Cameron has an agenda that transcends honesty and truth.

DonCameron wrote:
You tried once again to help me see where Russell had foretold the war that broke out in Europe in 1914.

Here is one of the things that gets in my way. There are two separate prophecies that “The World Magazine” is talking about.
1) The first prophecy is mentioned in the article’s title: END OF ALL KINGDOMES IN 1914 – Millennial Dawners 25-Year Prophecy.” That’s the one we both found on page 99 of “The Time Is At Hand.” That was Russell’s 25-year prophecy he wrote in 1889. But as you have shown, that prophecy doesn’t mention anything about a war that would begin in 1914. And as everyone on earth knows, that prophecy has never come true.
2) The second prophecy is the one referred to in the statement:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.” That’s the one I have not been able to find.

You made the interesting comment…
“I know Cameron…wants a WT in 1889 that comes right out and say,' There will be a great war in Europe in 1914.”
YES! THAT WOULD BE PERFECT. Unfortunately the WT never said such a thing. If it had I wouldn’t be questioning the Governing Body’s honesty, and you wouldn’t feel the need to keep shredding me to pieces.


From The Battle of Armageddon published in 1889, 25 years before 1914:

page 543

"In previous chapters we have noted the work of preparation for the conflict of this evil day; — the organizing, equipping and drilling of immense armies, the building of great navies, the invention of new and wonderful engines of war, the making of new and powerful explosives, and the draining of the national resources in every land for purposes of military equipment; and we have noted the mutterings of the angry nations as they all stand armed to the teeth, scowling upon one another."

I wonder what we will find when we examine the previous chapters of the book? I wonder if Don Cameron is getting nervous?

Really the book The Battle of Armageddon was not published in 1889 as I stated but rather 1897 therefore we can already here Don Cameron saying, "The World Magazine said 25 year prophecy not 17 year prophecy". Except for one thing. Don Cameron already wrote something different thus preventing him from now backtracking and making that claim:

You tried once again to help me see where Russell had foretold the war that broke out in Europe in 1914.
Here is one of the things that gets in my way. There are two separate prophecies that “The World Magazine” is talking about.
1) The first prophecy is mentioned in the article’s title: END OF ALL KINGDOMES IN 1914 – Millennial Dawners 25-Year Prophecy.” That’s the one we both found on page 99 of “The Time Is At Hand.” That was Russell’s 25-year prophecy he wrote in 1889. But as you have shown, that prophecy doesn’t mention anything about a war that would begin in 1914. And as everyone on earth knows, that prophecy has never come true.
2) The second prophecy is the one referred to in the statement:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.” That’s the one I have not been able to find.

In view of the book The Battle of Armageddon being published in 1897 its quite unfortunate for Mr. Cameron that in his quest to prove Brother Russell never said anything about a war in Europe he committed himself and admitted above that the '25 year prophecy' is the one about all the Kingdoms coming to an end. He clearly wanted to distinguish that '25 year prophecy' from the statements about the 'terrific war outbreak in Europe' because thats the only way he could promote his fallacious claim. Uh oh. Too bad for Mr. Cameron.



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So lets continue with the book, The Battle of Armageddon published in 1897

After telling of the "EXTRAVAGANT PREPARATIONS FOR WAR" that the nations are making and about their "MODERN IMPLEMENTS OF WAR" on page 142-3 it is stated further in this book, The Battle of Armageddon:

"The prophecy of Joel (3:9-11) is surely being fulfilled in the wonderful preparations for war now being made among the nations. Prophetically, he voiced the sentiments of these times, saying, "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles: Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up. Beat your
plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves and come, all ye nations, gather yourselves together round about."

Is not this the world-wide proclamation of the present time? Are not the mighty and the weak all nerving themselves for the coming conflict? Is not even the professed church of Christ marshalling the young boys and inspiring them with the spirit of war? Are not the men who otherwise would be following the plow and pruning the trees forging and handling instead the weapons of war? And are not the nations all assembling their mighty hosts and draining their financial resources beyond the powers of long endurance, in order thus to prepare for the exigencies of war — the great trouble which they see fast approaching?" end of quote.

Don Cameron wrote:
I was hoping someone was going to ask me about my comment about that insert on page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book.
That is where the Governing Body correctly quoted the August 30,1914 “The Word Magazine” where it said…
“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”
My Problem: I have not been able to find that prophecy.

Your problem is now solved.

Don Cameron wrote:
If you know where Russell had foretold the beginning of a war that would break out in Europe in 1914 please let me know where you found it. I would then apologize for suggesting the Governing Body has not told the truth in this instance.

We will be looking for it. Along with a whole bunch more apologies for 'suggesting the Governing Body has not told the truth' on many other matters. To prove that the apology is sincere I believe the burning of that book Captives of a Concept would be in order since it is so full of misinformation and untruths about the WTS.

March 1880 wt:

"...until the year 1914, which includes, between
now and then, the day of wrath and of angry nations,........................................................"

"In the future, as in the past, wicked men and nations will doubtless do their own fighting. During the coming reign of terror the saints will reign in judgment, and yet in war it will be "every man's hand against his brother."

The Society has never had a single false teaching.

While carefully studying the Society’s literature (including “Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom”) in preparation for writing “Captives of a Concept” I was surprised to discover that as hard as I tried I could not find a single false teaching, let alone a false prophecy, in the entire history of the Watchtower Society!

It took me a while but I gradually discovered the reason why. Their literature simply refuses to use the word “false” in connection with anything the Society has ever taught no matter how false it was.

In place of the word “false” such teachings have been referred to as “past truths”—thereby not only avoiding the word “false” but using the word “truth” in its place.

The word “false” is reserved for all other religions which just happened to be full of “false teachers,”“false teachings,”“false prophets” and “false prophecies” and therefore are “false religions.” On the other hand, according to the Society, they themselves have never had a single one of any of these and therefore it is “the true religion.”

Here are some of the terms the Society uses when referring to the teachings of other religions that they say are not true:

“falsehoods”
“false stories”
“false teachers”
“false teachings”
“false doctrines”
“false prophets”
“false prophecies”
“false religious views”
“false religious teachings”
“false religious philosophies”
“doctrines with pagan religious routes”
“God dishonoring doctrines of Babylon the Great”
“the disfiguring of God”
“nauseating teachings”
“God dishonoring”
“pagan doctrines”
“godless myths”

But when it comes to their own teachings that have not been true (like “Millions Now Living Will Never Die”) they use a completely different set of terms:

“errors”
“mistakes”
“misplaced zeal”
“unrealized hopes”
“previous failures”
“misinterpretations”
“misunderstandings”
“our understanding”
“misplaced optimism”
“wrong expectations”
“hopes and expectations”
“premature expectations”
“misplaced expectations”
“disappointed expectations”
“errors in their teachings”
“incomplete concepts”
“inaccurate concepts”
“serious disappointments”
“formerly cherished views”
“mistakes in their understanding”
“views in need of refinement”
“an expressed opinion”
“cherished errors”
“wrong beliefs”
“old truths”
“past truths”
“expectations needing some adjustment”
“matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed”

Notice that the word “false” is never used. Although the “Proclaimers” book mentions “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” several times, it never uses the word “false” to refer to it. In stead it is simply called “an expressed opinion.”

“Godless myth” seems like a pretty good term to use but that one is reserved for other religions.“The disfiguring of God” has a nice ring to it but that one too is only used when referring to other religions.

When I was a Witness I didn’t notice this phenomenon. I wonder if there are any Witnesses (or almost Witnesses) today who have noticed it?


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Wow. Amazing. All the ways the WTS has admitted their errors and mistakes. Yet that is not good enough for Don Cameron. Since they didn't use the word false therefore, they are trying to eliminate all traces of their mistakes? Is that the thinking?

I used to hear about Don Cameron's book and wondered if it had at least SOME substance to it. I never realized just how full of misinformation and deception it was until Mr. Cameron began to place snippets of it here at Topix. I am thoroughly dissappointed in just how easy it has been to expose the misconceptions in Captives of a Concept.

Lets do it some more, shall we?

Flame wrote:

Come on Mr Cameron, let be serious. You are looking for just that one specific word? Are you telling me that some of the words you listed i.e. "errors", "wrong beliefs", "errors in their teachings" etc... does not convey the same thoughts as the word you are looking for?

It's like me asking you that I need to see the word "Bible" in the Bible to believe it's the Bible.
Also you said: "Therefore it wasn’t just “a misplaced expectation”– it was “a false prophecy.”
Well they are not "false prophecy", because they were never "prophecies" in the first place.
Again, the premise was faulty.

Time is at Hand, 1916 edition. Opening forward:
"Our mistake was evidently not in respect to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles; we drew a FALSE conclusion, however, not authorized by the Word of the Lord."

9-1-83 wt
"Although the Bible Students had elders and deacons (ministerial servants), FALSE religious ideas still prevailed in some respects. Thus right into the 20th century elders were chosen by the congregations through a democratic voting process, indicated by a show of hands."

5-1-55 WT:
"Though Jehovah’s people from the 1870’s to 1918 had gradually changed over much of their basic religious thinking from the corrupt teachings of the Babylonish religion of apostate nominal churches, yet to a great degree they still were held in restraint by tainted bonds of FALSE conceptions and practices inherited from the pagan traditions adopted by Christendom.

For example, up to and including their 1918 troubles these witnesses of the Most High God still ...celebrated some pagan holidays, such as Christmas, they used the symbol of the cross as a sign of Christian devotion"

IP book, page 380:
"In 1919, however, things changed. Jehovah brought his people out of captivity. They began to reject the FALSE teachings that had earlier corrupted their worship. As a result, they enjoyed a healing."

To ThirdWitness: I Stand Corrected
...
I stand corrected.

On page 51 of “Captives of a Concept” I asserted that the Society has NEVER used the word “false” when referring to any of their previous teachings that were not true. But you provided a few isolated instances where they DID use that word. Although, I think the following example is the only time they used the expression “false teachings”…

"In 1919…Jehovah brought his people out of captivity. They began to reject the FALSE TEACHINGS that had earlier corrupted their worship."

That is a fair reference. I appreciate your bringing this to my attention. I will make note of these exceptions in my book.

Ok, I will wait until after the notation when that misinformation is then given before I provide more quotes proving the new claim bogus.

And of course we will be looking for the admission about the other bogus claims:

That Russell did not speak of a Great War coming in 1914.

That the appointment over all the belongings is required before the FDS can have authority as God's organization of people.

That the Dec 1, 1984 WT was deceitful.

Things were about to get down to the nitty gritty.

DonCameron wrote:
But in 1986 their generation of 1914 teaching was not a TRUE TEACHING OF THE BIBLE nor was it a SCRIPTURAL BELIEF. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses were “required” to believe it (until November of 1995) or be disfellowshipped. Why?
I assume ThirdWitness would explain that disfellowshipping in such cases is both necessary and Scriptural for a couple of reasons:

I do not know of one person disfellowshipped for not believing the generation belief. I would venture to say that there has never been one person disfellowshipped for simply not believing the generation beliefs. And I am not going out on a limb. Why? Because once a person begins to question the FDS and begins to think they know more than the one Jesus has appointed, it does not end with merely one belief such as the generation teaching. It leads to persons trying to cause division in the congregation. Don Cameron is a perfect example of that.

So for example, if I do not believe the current teaching about 'this generation' will I be dfed? No. I have discussed such things with elders and others and never once been threatened with disfellowshipping. Why? Because I realize that I do not know the definitive answer to the meaning. And I take the attitude that Jehovah is using the FDS to lead us and he will reveal the truth thru them as he has every other accurate teaching: Trinity, hellfire, kingdom, paradise, importance of God's name, etc. etc.

DonCameron wrote:
The April 1, 1986 Watchtower also says that Jehovah’s Witnesses are “required”(i.e.‘forced’) to accept all the Society's “unique beliefs”– even the ones that are not true - or be disfellowshipped.

Since when does the word required mean forced?

No one is 'forced' to become a JW. No one is 'forced' to remain a JW. If they don't want to meet the requirements then don't be a JW. And if they want to leave then leave. Of course there are always consequences to face for our actions.

Do you think the first century congregation had no requirements to be a Christian? Notice some of them:

1. Be obedient to those taking the lead among you.

2. Go therefore and make disciples.

3. Remove the wicked man from among you who is a fornicator, reviler, extortioner, etc etc.

4. Speak in agreement and be fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought.

5. Abstain from fornication, things sacrificed to idols, and from blood.

There were many more requirements.

3 John 9,10:“I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.”

Were there requirements in the first century organization to remain a part of it? Most definitely. The requirements are set forth in the Bible.

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You made the point that “Once a person begins to question the FDS and begins to think they know more than the one Jesus has appointed, it does not end with merely one belief such as the generation teaching.”
Your point might be valid only IF Jesus did in fact give the Society the above appointment in 1919.

No, not "only IF Jesus did in fact give the Society the above appointment in 1919." But rather, if the FDS is found only among JWs.

You see Here we are again with that same old false premise that JWs had to be appointed in 1919 or the FDS is not among them. There was no appointment of the FDS in 1919 as the FDS.

DonCameron wrote:
He said,“It seemed that everything ALWAYS comes back to the question:“Is the Society and it’s leadership the ‘faithful and discreet slave?”

Agreed 100 percent. That is the question. Is the FDS found among JWs? If Yes, then listen to them. If NO, then do your own thing. But the premise that if the FDS was not appointed over all the earthly belongings in 1919 then they cannot be God's people is false. Whether that particular appointment happened in 1919 or not does not stop a person from identifying who the FDS is today. Just ask: Who today is providing the spiritual food at the proper time and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and all that it entails worldwide?

So really we are back to that question I asked so long ago that Don Cameron was so reluctant to answer but finally answered showing truth, in his opinion, does not matter. The Question:

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then where only can the FDS be found and who only can be God's organization?

I readily admit that if JWs are wrong on those most important issues, then they are not God's organization and the FDS is not found among Jehovah's Witnesses. Don Cameron cannot admit the opposite to be true and therein lies his troubles and belies his honesty.

Let me say it once again, According to the Bible, the authority of the FDS as God's people does not depend on an appointment over all the earthly belongings in 1919.

This message was last edited at

DonCameron wrote:
The first thing I noticed about your above post is that you didn’t give me so much of a ‘shot’ this time! I appreciate it.

Please, do not misunderstand me. I think you, Don Cameron, are a very dishonest person. I think you would even tell outright lies to further your agenda of drawing unsuspecting ones away from God's organization. I am here to expose you and your faulty premises and lies. And that has been done time after time. Let me give a precise example from the 6 points you often list in hopes of proving JWs are not God's people.

Here are your 6 points:
DonCameron wrote:
1) The Society’s first two presidents never knew when Jesus returned. What are the chances that God would use such men in his “channel of communication” and then never communicate to them when his Son had returned?

2) They not only never knew he returned in 1914, they insisted that he returned in 1874. What are the chances that God would let his earthly channel misinform his people about the time of his Son’s return for seven decades?

3) From 1879 to 1914 their Watch Tower magazine was announcing that Jesus was invisibly present when he wasn’t.- i.e.“Herald of Christ’s Presence”

4) Since they believed that Jesus had returned in 1874 it means that they were not watching for his return in 1914. And yet, in Luke’s parallel account (12:37) Jesus said that they would be “happy” only if ‘on arriving (he) found them watching for his return.’ But he would not have found them watching in 1914 because they believed he had already arrived forty years earlier in 1874.

5) Luke 12:36 says,“At (Jesus’) arriving and knocking they may at once open to him.” But if he arrived and began knocking in 1914 but they didn’t acknowledge his arrival until 1943, it means that he would have had to knock for twenty-nine years before they opened to him.

6) Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that they were the only religion that was watching for his return in that year.

Lets tune specifically on this point:
DonCameron wrote:
4) Since they believed that Jesus had returned in 1874 it means that they were not watching for his return in 1914.

6) Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that they were the only religion that was watching for his return in that year.

Does Don Cameron here speak truth or is it just an outright lie? Were JWs looking for Christ's return in 1914 or not?

March 1880 WT: “‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914): “If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:
“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Same WT: "October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign."

"At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

I can give you as many quotes as you like showing that the Bible Students were looking for Jesus to return in full kingdom power in 1914. What can we conclude?

1. Don Cameron, you simply just don't know the history of JWs. But that can't be because you tell us how often you have examined the teachings of the organization from 1876 to 1919.

2. Don Cameron, you are a dishonest person. I see no other conclusion that could possibly be arrived at.

Let me simplify this:

Don Cameron: "they (JWs) were not watching for his (Jesus) return in 1914."

Oct 1913 WT: "October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign."

Don Cameron, are you a liar?

Don Cameron wrote: "... they (JWs) were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

Oct, 1913 WT: "At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

Don Cameron, are you a liar?

DonCameron wrote:
Since they were not waiting for his return in 1914 he would not have declared them “happy.”

Uh oh, Don Cameron, you messed up. Perhaps you should have said, "Since they WERE waiting for his return in 1914 he would HAVE declared them “happy.” "

DonCameron wrote:
1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

Lie or truth? Lets see.

Feb 15, 1915 WT: "We believe that the Times of the Gentiles ended just on time, as shown in Volume II. of STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES....We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914."

Remember the Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922. Brother Rutherford gave this famous speech. I'm sure you've heard of it before.

"“... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns. He has cleansed the lips of the temple class and sends them forth with the message. The importance of the message of the kingdom cannot be overstated. It is the message of all messages....

Do you believe it?...

Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God!... The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.”

Published in 1921, HARP OF GOD, PAGE 243:

"The period of the Gentiles is 2,520 years and ended in the autumn of 1914....At that time he must become active: "The Lord [Jehovah] shall send [forth] the rod [sceptre of authority] of thy strength out of Zion [saying]: Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110:2) Jesus himself testified that the end of the Gentile times would mark the time for him to begin the exercise of his regal authority. Then the nations would become angry and a great world war would follow.— Revelation 11:17,18; Matthew 24: 7,8."

PAGE 244:

"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914. The evidence is quite conclusive that here the Lord Jesus Christ, in obedience to God's command, stood up and began to exercise his power.(Daniel 12:1; Psalm 110:1,2; Revelation 11:17,18; Matthew 24:7,"

Don Cameron, please tell us, are you a liar or just ignorant of the history of the organization and what the first two presidents stated after 1914?

Simplified:
DonCameron wrote:
1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

Feb 15, 1915 WT: "We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914."

Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922, Brother Rutherford stated:
"“... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns."

HARP OF GOD, 1921, PAGE 244:
"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914...the Lord Jesus Christ,...stood up and began to exercise his power."

Don Cameron, are you a liar?

DonCameron wrote:
1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

Don Cameron, isn't all 5 of your stated points above actually false? Doesn't that make you a liar since you have carefully examined the organizaiton's teachings from 1876 to 1919 and falsely presented them?

Someone once asked Don Cameron this question: What if Jesus came mid-May, 2007? Would he find the WTS giving the domestics their food at the proper time?

DonCameron wrote:
I suspect that the first thing Jesus would notice is that there is not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return because they believe he already returned 93 years ago. And yet Jesus said that they would be 'happy" only if "on arriving he found them watching for his return.'- Luke 12:36,37

Really, not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return?

Proclaimers book page 716: "The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind."

KM July, 1995: "Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance."

Oct 1, 1978 WT: "Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment."

Don Cameron, are you a liar?

DonCameron wrote:
I don't think the Society would score very well in a food-at-the-proper-time examination by Jesus Christ in May of 2007. Don C

Really, so now the truth is coming out is it? Remember how you kept refusing to answer this question:

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then where only can the FDS be found and who only can be God's organization?

And even when you did finally answer you failed to committ yourself in explaining whether you believed these doctrines to be true or false. Now it seems you believe that JWs would still not pass the exam even today. Why? Which doctrines do you disagree with?

AGain simplified:
DonCameron wrote:
I suspect that the first thing Jesus would notice is that there is not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return because they believe he already returned 93 years ago.

Proclaimers book page 716: The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind.

KM July, 1995: Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance.

Oct 1, 1978 WT: Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment.

Don Cameron, are you unfamiliar with the history and teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses or are you simply a liar?

You really don't let go do you? Boy am I sure glad I'm not an apostate. If I was I think I'd have to move to a different neighborhood.

RE: That Cedar Point, Ohio Convention of September 8, 1922 –“Do You Believe It?”

What about Rutherford’s question,“Do you believe it? that you mentioned?

You gave a partial quote like this:“…Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns.
I remember that quote. Especially the “…” part of it.

When Rutherford asked,“Do you believe it?” one of the things I recall they were to believe was that Jesus’“invisible presence” dated from 1874 not 1914.

With you research ability would you please find for us what Rutherford said in that “…” part? I'm pretty sure he still dated Jesus' return to begin his "invisible presence" as 1874.

Yes, he did. This has never been denied. 1874 they believed was when Christ's parousia began. 1878 he began to set up the Kingdom. And 1914 he would return in complete Kingdom power. That were the beliefs before 1914 and immediately after 1914. But your contention is that they missed him in 1914 because they thought his parousia began in 1874. So would you be so bold as to answer these simple questions:

Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914? Did they miss him or not? After all, the answer to these questions are what your whole theory hangs upon.

Here is the reference to Rutherford's talk in the Nov 1, 1922 WT:

"Since 1874 the King of glory has been present; and during that time he has conducted a harvest and has gathered unto himself the temple class. Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns. He has cleansed the lips of the temple class and sends them forth with the message of all messages. It is the message of the hour. It is incumbent upon those who are the Lord’s to declare it. The kingdom of heaven is at hand; the King reigns; Satan’s empire is falling; millions now living will never die.

Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is not in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign?

Then back to the field, O ye sonse of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. God forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom."

You listed 5 examples where you feel that I am lying in my book. These examples come from Chapter 3 under the heading,“The Second Coming of Christ.”

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

Point #1: You seem to have missed the point that the “return” I am referring to throughout my book is Jesus’ return to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence”(as the Society prefers to call it). As I am sure you know those expressions come from the Greek word “parousia” found at Matthew 24:3. I'm always referring to Jesus' "parousia" and not any other "return" you may have in mind.

The reason I said that Russell and Rutherford never knew that Jesus’ returned in 1914 to begin his ”invisible presence” is because that’s what the “Proclaimers” book teaches. My book explains where the “Proclaimers” book teaches this. You must have missed that too. If you need help finding the book’s explanation let me know.

Point #2: Russell began to teach the wrong date of 1874 in 1876. ACCORDING TO THE PROCLAIMES BOOK they didn’t stop teaching that wrong date until 1943. That comes out to be 67 years.

Point #3: I said that the Society did not faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return to begin his “invisible presence.” What do you call it when Russell presumptuously announced the wrong date of 1874 for 40 years right up to his death in 1916? What do you call it when the title of Watch Tower magazine included the announcement,“Herald of Christ’s Presence” all those years that he was NOT invisibly present? In what possible way can it be said that Russell faithfully waited for Jehovah to reveal the time of Jesus’ invisible presence when it is realized that Russell announced the wrong date right up to his death?

Point #4: I said that the Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914. If Jesus returned to begin his “invisible presence” in 1914 but the Society didn’t acknowledge that he had returned in that year until 1943, that adds up to 29 years. In Luke 12:36 Jesus said that his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. And so if Jesus arrived to begin his “invisible presence” in 1914 and began knocking at that time, he would have had to knock for 29 years before they realized that he began knocking in 1914.

Point #5: I have said that the Society was not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return to begin his “invisible presence” in 1914. That is because they all believed his “invisible presence” had already begun 40 years earlier in 1874. It is the same today. There is not a single Jehovah’s Witness today who is waiting for Christ’s return to begin his “Second Coming“ because they now believe he already returned to begin his“ second Coming" in 1914.

Am I intentionally lying about all these tings in order to deliberately deceive, or is it just that you and I just don't happen to agree about them?

DonCameron wrote:
1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

I have stated on previous occasions that Russell believed Christ's parousia began in 1874 but that his return in full kingdom power would come in 1914.

But Don Cameron tries to deceive us and lead us to a false conclusion. He wants his reader to believe that since:

A. They thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then

B. They could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914 and

C. They did not recognize that he took invisible power in 1914 until 1943 therefore

D. They could not have passed the test since they failed to recognize Jesus in 1914.

This is a deceitful falsehood as we have shown from the WT publications and Don Cameron's whole theory set forth in his book is an outright lie.

As we look at each one of your statements made above by Cameron we can clearly see the deceit involved in his claims.

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

That is deceitful. They both acknowledged that Jesus returned in Kingdom power invisibly in 1914.

2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years

That is deceitful. They announced his return in kingdom power both before and immediately after 1914.

3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.

More deceit. Then how did they point to 1914 as the date for return of Jesus in his kingdom? And why did they continue to point to that date immediately after 1914 as the date that Christ came in Kingdom power?

4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.

More misinformation. They pointed to 1914 both before and immediately after as the date for Christ's return in Kingdom power.

5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

Absolute lie. They were the only ones faithfully awaiting his return in Kingdom power in 1914.

If you were honest you would make sure your book denotes the difference in what JWs believed at the time rather than trying to perpetrate that they believed his parousia began in 1874 thus they could not be watching for him in 1914.

That is a deceitful lie as I have shown from the WT publications and you know it to be so.

You have knowingly attempted to deceive. In essence you have said, "Is it really so that the WTS taught Jesus would return in 1914?" Then you proceed to deceitfully try to hide the truth of what JWs taught and that is nothing but a tactic of the father of the lie. And you have been caught and exposed.

Thanks for acknowledging that Rutherford did include 1874 as the date of Jesus’“invisible presence” in his “Do You Believe? speech.

You then asked me the very important question,“Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914?”

I feel your question needs to specify what they were waiting for in 1914. As I mentioned previously in my book I only deal with the date for the beginning of Jesus’“parousia,”“Second Coming” or “presence” referred to at Matthew 24:3.
And so I would reword your question as follows:

“Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus’“invisible presence” to begin in 1914?”

My answer would be “No.” Why not? Because they thought Jesus’ invisible presence already begun 40 years earlier in 1874. Whatever they were watching for in 1914 it was not for Jesus’“Second Coming.”

When I was a Witness I wasn’t looking forward to, or watching for Jesus’“invisible presence” to begin. I was taught that that had already happened in 1914.

What about today? Are you or the Governing Body or any other Witness watching for Jesus’“invisible presence” or “Second Coming” to begin?

If there are any Witnesses (of their Bible Students) on this Forum, how would you answer the above question?

Topsy wrote: "Don you know that according to JW the presence and the coming are two distinct seperate events.

So according to JW Theology the presence begain in 1914 but the coming will happen at Armegeddon which hasnt happened yet."

You said,“Don, you know that according to JW the presence and the coming are two distinct SEPARATE events.”

But I also know that according to JW “Christ’s invisible presence” and “Christ’s Second Coming” are referring to the one distinct SAME event. Both terms come from the Greek word “parousia” that is found Matthew 24:3.

Although the Governing Body prefers “Christ’s Second Presence” or “Christ’s invisible presence,” they know that “the Second Coming of Christ” refers to the same event that they say happened in 1914.

I know they ‘fiddle around’ with another “coming”(a Third Coming?) that has nothing to do with Jesus’ return in 1914 to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence.”

Let me know your thought on this matter.

Don
P.S. In my book I only deal with the one event: "Christ's invisible presence" or "Christ's Second Coming" depending on which term you choose to call it.

Topsy wrote:
Matthew 24:3 is speaking of his presence. It could also be accurately described as coming, but other scripture points to a presence and then a coming.

Jesus presence is compared to the Days of Noah, which were spread out over an extended amount of time not one single event.

Also, how do you explain Psalms 110:1 and Acts 2:34 where Christ sits at his FAther's right hand and waits for Jehovah to make his enemies a "footstool".

But Don, I dont think your being completely honest when presenting Christ's presence and coming as the same event when discussing JW beliefs. You may think they are teh same event, your interetaiton may be that and that is fine, but the JW dont teach that. If you are saying that JW teach Jesus presence and his coming are teh same event in your book then you have constructed a straw man argument that is intellectualy dishonest.

Maybe I am misreading your intent or in my obtuseness just not getting your point, but you seem to be a good guy, and not one who would intentionally misrepresent JW teachings in this regard.

Thirdwitness, I don’t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems that in order to convince yourself and your readers that I am deliberately lying and trying to deceive, you tend to misrepresent what I say in my book.

This post of yours presents an example of you doing this. Here is what you said BUT WITH MY CORRECTIONS INSERTED…

“Don Cameron tries to deceive us and lead us to a false conclusion. He wants his reader to believe that since:

‘A.(The Society) thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then

B. They could not have been watching for Jesus’ PAROUSIA TO BEGIN in 1914 and

C. ACCORDING TO THE PROCLAIMERS BOOK they did not recognize JESUS’ INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914 until 1943, therefore

D. They could not have passed (Jesus’) test since they failed to recognize WHEN JESUS RETURNED TO BEGIN HIS “SECOND COMING” OR “INVISIBLE PRESENCE.”

(Note: This is not the only reason I don’t think they would have passed a food-at-the-proper-time examination by Jesus in 1919. But I do feel that their false teaching about 1874 sure wouldn’t have helped them pass it.)

You then concluded:“This is a deceitful falsehood as we have shown from the WT publications and Don Cameron's whole theory set forth in his book is an outright lie.”

I can only hope that if there are any “deceitful falsehoods” going on here that our readers will recognize where they are coming from.

Topsy has got you here. You are being deceitful in trying to claim that the Bible Students were not watching for Jesus in 1914 and therefore missed him. Quite deceitful.

It is like someone thinking the ice cream truck just turned down their block and so they go outside and tell all their friends the ice cream truck will be here in a minute and so they wait for it to get to their house. It does arrive just as you thought but then you find out it hadn't turned down your block at all when you thought but rather it came from another direction. Would it be proper to say you missed the ice cream truck because you thought it turned down your block when really it hadn't? Of course not. That would be a deceitful claim. Everyone knows you told them the ice cream truck would be here in a minute.

So just because now you say,'well I'm talking about Christ's parousia.'

A.(The Society) thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then
B. They could not have been watching for Jesus’ PAROUSIA TO BEGIN in 1914 and
C. ACCORDING TO THE PROCLAIMERS BOOK they did not recognize JESUS’ INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914 until 1943, therefore
D. They could not have passed (Jesus’) test since they failed to recognize WHEN JESUS RETURNED TO BEGIN HIS “SECOND COMING” OR “INVISIBLE PRESENCE.”

Big deal. It is a strawman argument. They weren't looking for his parousia but they were most definitely looking for Jesus and his Kingdom. They therefore did not miss it as you claim. After all, your whole point and basis for your book is that they missed Jesus in 1914 but they didn't. Your argument is deceitful.

If you want to be honest then you should have told how they were indeed watching for Jesus to come in Kingdom power in 1914 and so they did not miss that event. It is a tactic often used by opposers and apostates in imitation of the first apostate/opposer, that is to take a little truth and season it with falsehoods. In reality, it is nothing but a lie and you have been exposed.

Why don't you just honestly admit that your book is based on false premises and misinformation?

DonCameron wrote:
ThirdWitness,
You then asked me the very important question,“Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914?”
I feel your question needs to specify what they were waiting for in 1914.

Why? Why do you feel it is necessary to specify what they were waiting for in the question I asked? You certainly did not specify the difference in your book. But you want us to specify the difference NOW! You try to lead the reader to believe that JWs were not watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914 and that is clearly untrue.

The only question that needs to be asked is: Were Russell and the Bible students watching and waiting for Christ in 1914? After all, your claim is that they missed it. That is your whole basis for claiming that they could not pass the test. Did they miss Jesus in 1914 or not? You say they did. But they really didn't, did they? Not according to what the WT publications reveal for us.

You have perpetrated a falsehood. Your book is based on lies. You can face it or not, but all can see. Even your cronies can see it though they would never admit it. Instead their tactic is:'Why are you here 3w? You shouldn't be here. You are disobedient.'

I like it when I begin to see those comments because then I know that they have no reply for the documented evidence and are reduced to that claim. Thats when I know the exposing has been completed without any chance of refutation.

DonCameron wrote:
I know they ‘fiddle around’ with another “coming”(a Third Coming?) that has nothing to do with Jesus’ return in 1914 to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence.”

Perhaps if you had learned what JWs really taught and teach you would not have left the truth and written a book full of lies and deception and misinformation.

There is no "third coming". And his coming at Armageddon has everything to do with his parousia. It is the final part of the parousia. Christ parousia did not just happen in 1914 and end that same year. It is during Christ parousia which only began in 1914 that he accomplishes many things. The last of which is his coming to execute those that oppose him at Armageddon.

It is ashamed you did not learn these things before writing a book based on your false understanding of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. You perhaps could have avoided this embarrassment you now face.

DonCameron wrote:
But does that fit with the way it was with the Society in 1914?

Excellent question and the answer reveals the whole truth of the matter. I know of no other way to find out the answer to that question than to look back and see what the WT publications were saying about 1914 and whether they were expecting Jesus at that time or not. Lets see:

March 1880 WT:“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:
“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Oct 1913 WT: October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign.

Oct, 1913 WT: "At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

Were they watching and waiting for Jesus to return in Kingdom power in 1914?

Who can honestly answer? Can Don Cameron give us an honest answer? Or will he skirt the question and change the question and then proceed to answer his revamped question as he has done so far? The next few posts by Don Cameron will reveal if he has any honesty at all.

ThirdWitness

You asked,“Were (Russell and his associates) watching and waiting for Jesus to return in Kingdom power in 1914?”

But I don’t deal with that question in my book. The question I do deal with is the following:

“Were they watching and waiting for Jesus to return to begin his ‘invisible presence’(or ‘Second Coming’ or ‘parousia’) in 1914?” The answer to THAT question of course is, "No."

My question is prompted by the statement on top of page 47 of the “Proclaimers” book where it says,“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that CHRIST’S INVISIBLE PRESENCE had begun in 1874.”

As I’m sure that even you realize, that therefore Russell was NOT waiting or watching for Jesus’ invisible presence to begin in 1914.

But what you apparently do not realize is that you have changed MY question into YOUR question and then repeatedly proclaimed over and over again that I am deliberately lying and deceiving about YOUR question.

I’m assuming that you have not done this on purpose in order try to mislead anyone. What I do feel is that you are so deeply captive of your illusionary “God’s organization” concept that you have unintentionally had to resort to misrepresenting me and my book in order to maintain your illusion – an illusion that you are not able to face yet.

Am I correct? I don’t know.

But something is driving your obsession to discredit me and my book. And I realize that it is beyond my ability to help you “come back to your proper senses” in order to see what you are doing.- 2 Timothy 2:25, 26

By failing to answer the question you did indeed answer the question. You cannot honestly answer the question because the answer would expose your book as deceitful. You claim that Russell and the Bible Students missed Jesus in 1914. You are wrong and that is deceitful since you know better.

Don Cameron wrote: "But I don’t deal with that question in my book."

No you don't. How could you? If you were honest you would have dealt with it but you can't because That question brings down your whole theory that your book is based upon.

That is why instead of dealing with the question you lyingly state: "But he would not have found them watching in 1914 because they believed he had already arrived forty years earlier in 1874."

So you attempt to obscure that 'minor' detail. The detail that they were the only ones looking for Christ in 1914. Instead you again attempt to mislead by stating:

"Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

Everyone can see that you have been exposed as dishonest. Thats why they try to cover up with a barrage of posts like,'Why are you here 3w?'

If you had simply admitted the truth in your book you would not be having to deal with the question that you cannot answer now. Isn't it ironic that you claim deceit by the WTS while all the while hypocritcally trying to deceive your readers.

Little Charley told everyone that he believed he heard the song of the ice cream truck. He told them that he believed it had just turned down their block and would be at their houses in 5 minutes and so he went out to meet the ice cream truck. But the ice cream truck had not turned down the block as he had thought. He had misplaced the song of the ice cream truck. Instead it came from the other end of the block but it still arrived 5 minutes later as little Charley had said.

When little Donny finally came outside the ice cream truck was long gone. He went around telling all his friends that little Charley had missed the ice cream truck because he thought it turned down their block from the other direction when it really didn't.

Little Donny came up behind little Charley chanting, "Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

Little Charley turned around to expose his chocolate covered fudgcical grin. Little Donny paused for a moment. He knew that little Charley had been watching for the ice cream truck all along but he would not now admit it. He would be a laughing stock to all his friends.

Little Donny ran off hollering as loud as he could, ""Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

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but I have seen a few misnomers he (Cameron) has presented.

1) He doesnt present JW view of teh Second coming correct in his book from what I gather. Teh Second Coming consists of teh presnece, and then the Return. I am not so sure that Don makes that distinction in his book. But this is based on his presentation here as I have not read teh book, so take form that what you want.

2) NO matter how much you guys try to convince others that JW were nto waiting for something to happen in 1914 you are wrong. 1914 was a target date, and the 1876 date was more Barbour's date than Russell's. Expectations were nto met but this is the smae to me as teh Disciples waiting for Jesus to finally ascend to the throne after his ressrection in Acts 1:7 only to be dissapointed. Would they be rejected too because they knew something was going to go on, but thier expectations were not met?

....Lastly the FDS recieved its appointment in the first centruty and has existed down through the great apostasy. whether they passed in 1919 is nto crucial in the minds of many JW, and the presentations as to whetehr they passed this expectation or not is based on the individual's own level of expectation. If DON and others feel that they didnt pass the inspection then that is fine, but dont get all upset when we dont agree with you.

All it says is that the FDS would be "faithfull in many things" and discreet. Past that any expectations you think that Jesus was looking for is your own guess at what Jesus would expect. You dont really know because scritpure isnt that specific. So your expectaitons are just as valid as min or 3rd witnesse's since we relaly dont know what Jesus was looking for other than to be "faithfull in all things" and discreet.

To me the evidence of this is the core doctrines being discoverd and taught, and deveolped at that time that differentiate the JW from others.
...

Hi Topsy,

This time you said,“(Don) doesn’t present JW view of the Second coming correct in his book from what I gather.”

Here is how I present it in my book. On page 7 I mention several “Important Terms.” I include “Christ’s invisible presence.” Here is what I said:

“Christ’s invisible presence”: This term corresponds to what everyone else calls “the Second Coming of Christ” referred to at Matthew 24:3. The Society teaches that Jesus returned to begin his “invisible presence” in 1914. But they explain that it was ‘not by his personally returning, even invisibly, to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King.’

Then comes Chapter 2,“Matthew 24:45-47 – The Most Important Scripture In Watchtower Theology.”

"Their most detailed explanation of Matthew 24:45-47 is presented in the book 'God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached.' It was written by the Society’s most respected ‘eminent Bible scholar’ Frederick Franz. He was the president of the Watchtower Society from 1977 until his death in 1992.

“IMPORTANT NOTE: For the purpose of this study it is only necessary to understand their interpretation of this passage of Scripture—not to agree or disagree with it. Whether it is Biblically correct doesn’t matter. The only concern here is if it is historically correct. That is, does what went on in their history agree with the way they interpret Matthew 24:45-47 in their recent January 15, 2008 Watchtower:

“When Christ inspected the faithful and discreet slave’ in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual ‘food at the proper time.’ Hence, Jesus was pleased thereafter to appoint them “over all his belongings.”(Read Matthew 24:45-47)- p. 24

“Their teaching is that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his Second Coming or “invisible presence” in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3. Then in 1918 he began to make an examination of all the religions claiming to represent him to see if any of them had been faithfully and discreetly providing true teachings of the Bible (spiritual food) at the proper time during his absence. They say that the only religion he found doing so was the Watchtower Society and therefore Jesus appointed them over all his earthly interests or “belongings” in the spring of 1919.”

“Notice that the only reason Jesus would have made the above appointment is if he had found them providing ‘spiritual food at the proper time.’ Their 'God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached' book explains this very critical point under the heading “Time of Inspection by the Slave’s Master.” On pages 350-355 Frederick Franz explains…

“The serving of food, the right sort of food at the proper time was the issue. It had to be according to this that a decision must be rendered by the returned master [Jesus]…On inspecting [the Society] in the year 1919 C.E… Jesus Christ did find the appointed ”slave” faithful and discreet in the feeding of his [disciples].”

Topsy, in my book I don’t just take the Franz’s word for it that the Society had really been “faithful and discreet in the feeding of his disciples.” When I checked for myself I concluded just the opposite. I could see why Jehovah never allowed Russell or Rutherford (according to the “Proclaimers” book) to know when his Son had returned to begin his Second Coming (assuming he did return in 1914 – which I don’t think you believe either – do you?)

How faithful or discreet could those men have been when it is realized the God kept both of them totally in the dark about such a “core teaching” as the Second Coming of his Son? Not very faithful or discreet I would think.

Do you see any misstatement about the Society’s teaching about the Second Coming of Christ?

...to argue that the JW werent waiting for Jesus on the premise that they taught the presence began in 1874 (Barbour's teaching that Russell adopted)and the return would happen in 1914 is not accurate. They were waiting, they just didnt know exactly what would happen.

Kind of similiar to Armegeddon. We are waiting for it to happen one day, if it doesn't happen how we think does that mean we were not faithfull and therefore Jesus would reject us?

DON

Do you explain to the reader the distinction between teh presence and the return in your book? While you are correct, that JW teach teh presence began Jesus second coming for those not familair with JW Theology on this matter they could be misled.

Also, you are rejcting the WTS based on "spritiual food at teh proper time". You say they couldnt have because they werent waiting on Jesus presence. Yes they were, they knew something would happen, and had it pegged the "end of teh gentile times"befoer it came about. I used an Armegeddon comparison above in my previous post.

Also, to base your rejection around that whole point, and trying to disprove a invisible appointment is just as presumptous as proving there was an invisible appointment.

I just dont think there is enough evidence either way to prove the appointment at that particular time or disprove it. I think to me and most JW teh core set of doctrines No Trinity, mortal soul, God's kingdom a real GOVT., all should preach, no hellfire etc..... are much more important than some unprovable albiet convienent invisible action.

First of all one of the things the apostate and anti-JW websites are good at is providing snippets of quotes and not providing teh cautionary statements published right alongside these quotes. They thought this was how this or that would happen, but they cautioned the reader not to dogmatically accept that and to be stumbled if it didnt happen that way.

What proves he was with JW? The core doctrines they had.

How do you know Jesus is with you?

DonCameron wrote:
Then comes Chapter 2,“Matthew 24:45-47 – The Most Important Scripture In Watchtower Theology.”

Annnnnt! False. Not the most important scripture in Watchtower Theology. Surely Don Cameron must know better than that. He has been reading Danny Haszard too much.

Nov 1, 1993 WT clearly shows Cameron to be in error. Here it states:

"Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching—who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one?"

Yes the most important teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses is self explanatory since it is contained in the very name of the organization. The most important teaching being: Who is God?

DonCameron wrote:
I could see why Jehovah never allowed Russell or Rutherford (according to the “Proclaimers” book) to know when his Son had returned to begin his Second Coming (assuming he did return in 1914 –

Woefully misleading and deceitful. Jehovah allowed Russell to know over 30 years in advance that Christ was returning in Kingdom power in 1914. He and brother Rutherford both agreed thereafter that Christ did come in invisible kingdom power in 1914.

DonCameron wrote:
How faithful or discreet could those men have been when it is realized the God kept both of them totally in the dark about such a “core teaching” as the Second Coming of his Son? Not very faithful or discreet I would think.

Again deceitfully misleading. Cameron calls someone who pointed to 1914 as the time of trouble and the year that Christ would come in Kingdom power as 'totally in the dark'? Thereafter both men pointed out that Jesus had begun to rule invisibly in Kingdom power in 1914. Totally in the dark? Is that really an honest statement?

If anything the 'core teaching' is that Jesus came in invisible kingdom power in 1914 which both men recognized as did others in the organization. When examining the history of the organization it is a most ridiculous statement that could only be made by ones who have an agenda that transcends the truth.

Don Cameron would have been an excellent apostate in the first century. He could have used the same arguments about how the apostles expected Jesus to restore the kingdom right there on earth at that time and could have even said word for word: "How faithful or discreet could those men have been when it is realized the God kept all twelve of them totally in the dark about such a “core teaching” as the First Coming of his Son? Not very faithful or discreet I would think."

Then he could have added how they faithlessly and indiscreetly abandoned Jesus and then merely a few days later claimed to have been appointed and anointed as the faithful and discreet slave.

DonCameron wrote:
Hi Topsy,
This time you said,“(Don) doesn’t present JW view of the Second coming correct in his book from what I gather.”
Here is how I present it in my book. On page 7 I mention several “Important Terms.” I include “Christ’s invisible presence.” Here is what I said:
“Christ’s invisible presence”: This term corresponds to what everyone else calls “the Second Coming of Christ” referred to at Matthew 24:3. The Society teaches that Jesus returned to begin his “invisible presence” in 1914. But they explain that it was ‘not by his personally returning, even invisibly, to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King.’

Yes, as we know Christendom's view of 'the 2nd coming of Christ'is totally different from the view of JWs and Topsy is correct when he says: "Don) doesn’t present JW view of the Second coming correct in his book from what I gather."

Oct, 1913 WT: "At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom. Referring to the last king of Israel, Zedekiah, we read, "Thou profane, and wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end; thus saith the Lord God, Remove the diadem and take off the crown;...I will overturn, overturn, overturn it; and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it to Him." (Ezekiel 21:25-27.) If this period of overturning be rightly understood to be 2,520 years, it would seem to END WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the SETTING UP OF HIS KINGDOM."

As we know JWs believe that Christ's parousia is a considerable number of years and culminates when Jesus comes to execute judgment. Don Cameron has misrepresented the views of Russell and JWs as Topsy has duly noted.

DonCameron wrote:
Do you see any misstatement about the Society’s teaching about the Second Coming of Christ?

Yes, just pointed them out.....AGAIN!

And if a may back track for a moment just to show how Don Cameron exposed his deceit.

I asked Don Cameron this very important question: "Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914?"

Don Cameron replied: "I feel your question needs to specify what they were waiting for in 1914."

I agree. And Don Cameron here exposes himself as deceitful for it is he himself who purposely fails to specify in his book what they were waiting for in 1914. In fact, rather than specify, he tries to HIDE that they were watching and waiting for Christ to come in Kingdom power in 1914. And yet, now he admits that it needs to be specified. Don Cameron is condemned by his own words of deceit.

Don Cameron has repeatedly refused to answer this little simple question. It merely requires a yes or no answer. And it is such an easy to understand question, not complicated at all.

Don Cameron, Were Russell and the Bible Students (now known as JWs) watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914?

Can you answer? Why is it so difficult for you to answer this simple question? Lets see if you can answer. Yes or No is all that is required. Again here is the question simplified for you:

Were JWs watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914?

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Were JWs Watching for Jesus in 1914?

March 1880 WT:“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:
“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events 1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Oct 1913 WT: October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign....At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom....If this period of overturning be rightly understood to be 2,520 years, it would seem to END WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the SETTING UP OF HIS KINGDOM."

the truth wrote: "no, they believed he had already came in 1874"

Graceforsinwrote: "No they were not looking for Jesus in 1914;"

Others did not answer including Don Cameron. If anyone ever had doubts about the honesty of opposers/apostates here at topix all doubt has been removed. No where can you find a better example of opposer and apostate dishonesty than right here on this thread.

Is there not one opposer/apostate that will honestly answer?

Don Cameron--Were JWs Watching for Jesus in 1914?

Don Cameron knows he cannot answer the question. Why?

1. If he says NO they were not watching, obviously everyone will recognize that he is a liar since he will be explicitly contradicting several WT publications written before 1914.

2. If he says YES they were watching, then he has contradicted his own writings thus he calls himself a liar and invalidates all the hard work he did on his book of misinformation and deception.

Therefore Don Cameron wisely must ignore the question but even so he exposes himself as deceitful.

Does this statement: "But he (Jesus) would not have found them watching in 1914...."

contradict this statement: "October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign....At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom...it would seem to END WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the SETTING UP OF HIS KINGDOM."

So Don Cameron, do you have a word for us:

Were JWs Watching for Jesus in 1914?

It only requires a YES or NO.

Are you a captive of your own misconcept?

Topsy Crett wrote:
To argue that the JW werent waiting for Jesus on the premise that they taught the presence began in 1874 (Barbour's teaching that Russell adopted)and the return would happen in 1914 is not accurate. They were waiting, they just didnt know exactly what would happen.

I did see one honest answer. But it was not from Don Cameron.

ThirdWitness has repeatedly asked the following question:“Were the Witnesses watching for Jesus in 1914?”

MY ANSWER: Although they were not watching for Jesus’ invisible presence to begin, they were waiting and watching for several other things about Jesus.

1) They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and put an end to all human rule by the end of 1914..

2) They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and set up God’s Kingdom and take universal control and firmly establish it in the earth.

3) They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come in order to be present as earth’s new Ruler.

4) They were watching and watching for Jesus to come and dash the Gentile nations to pieces.

5) They were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and establish his own righteous government.

6) They were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and glorify them along with Jesus as their head.

7) They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and stop the Gentile nations from troddening down Jerusalem.

They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and select them as his Bride.

9) They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and smite and crush the Gentile image and fully consume the power of these kings.

But again, they were NOT waiting or watching for Jesus’“invisible presence” to begin because they believed that that event took place 40 years earlier in 1874.

And so ThirdWitness (and Topsy), you are correct. The Witnesses were waiting and watching for Jesus to come and do all sorts of interesting things. The only problem was that he didn’t do any of the above things they were waiting and watching for.

The one thing they SHOULD have been watching and waiting for was Jesus’ Second Coming or “invisible presence” to begin. But they were so busy waiting and watching for all the wrong things that they missed the most important thing – the Second Coming of Christ in 1914 (according to what the Society teaches today).

So there you are ThirdWitness and all others who have been breathlessly waiting for me to answer the above quiestion.

Will this satisfy ThirdWitness? Will he now stop from accusing me of deliberately lying in order to deceive? I doubt it.

Don
See "The Time Is At Hand" pp. 77,78

You have dissappointed most all of your supporters that you have admitted this. They swore it was not true. But It is good to see that you admit that they (JWs) were waiting and watching for Jesus to come in invisible Kingdom power at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.

It is good to see that you admit that this is an untrue statement: "But he would not have found them watching in 1914 ...."

And you admit that this is a deceptive statement:
"Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

And you admit that all these statements are misleading:
"1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

And you admit that attempting to get persons to reason like this is also deceptive:

A. Since they thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then

B. They could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914 and

C. They did not recognize that he took invisible power in 1914 until 1943 therefore

D. They could not have passed the test since they failed to recognize Jesus in 1914.

Since you have admitted that the reasoning in your book is deceptive and based on misinformation will you be removing it from circulation and rewriting it or will you continue to leave it out there in hopes of misleading unwary ones with your deceptive reasoning?

But I am very happy and it is good to see that You have admitted that you are a captive of your own misconcepts.

WOW! I can't believe how many different ways that CT Russel and associates where looking for Jesus in 1914. Thanks for enumerating them for us Don.

I’d like to comment on the following part of your recent post where you said,“You admit that all these statements are misleading.”

You then listed 5 specific things that I say in “Captives of a Concept.” I’ll comment on each one

The first thing I need to mention is that all these statements were made under the heading,“”The Second Coming of Christ.”

The second think I want to mention is that I do NOT admit that any of the following statements are misleading.

Let’s begin…

1)“Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”

That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says. I’m just helping the reader notice that this is what the “Proclaimers” book says and where it says it. If you don’t know that this is what the “Proclaimers” book teaches that doesn’t mean that I am misleading anyone. It just means that you don’t realize that this is what the “Proclaimers” book teaches. If you need help finding where the book teaches it let me know.

2)(The Society) indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years.”

The “Proclaimers” book says that in 1876 Russell began announcing that Jesus was invisibly present since 1874. The book explains that the Society didn’t stop announcing that date until 1943. That adds up to 67 years.

3)(Russell) didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.

That is true. Russell didn’t wait for Jehovah to reveal the time of Jesus’ return to begin his “invisible presence.” He very unfaithfully went to a fellow human (Nelson Barbour) and adopted his false date of 1874 which he then announced for the rest of his life.

4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return (or arrival) in 1914..

The Society teaches that Jesus arrived in 1914 to begin his Second Coming. Luke said that “at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him.” But the “Proclaimers” book says that the Society had no idea Jesus had arrived in 1914 until 1943. And so they didn’t ‘hear’ him knocking until 29 years after his arrival .(914 to 1943 is 29 years).- Luke 12:36

5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

The were not waiting for his Second Coming in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier.(Remember, all of my discussion about this matter in the book is under the heading “The Second Coming of Christ.”

You and Topsy place great emphasis on the fact that the Witnesses were “watching for Jesus” in 1914.” But for whatever reason(s) neither of you notice (or care, apparently) that it was for the very reason that they were watching for all the wrong things that caused them to miss the most important thing they SHOULD have been watching for – the Second Coming of Christ.”(This is assuming that Jesus did return in 1914)

You both are praising the thing that caused them to miss the most important event in the history of the Christian religion since the First Coming of Christ. i.e.– the Second Coming of Christ.

If the Second Coming of Christi is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.

Don

NOTE to ThirdWitness: Toward the end of your letter you said that you were very “happy” that I have admitted that I have been a lying and deceiving servant of my father Satan the Devil.

I suppose the above letter will cause you to stop being happy. Sorry about that. You are a much nicer person when you are happy.

Don Cameron wrote:
You both are praising the thing that caused them to miss the most important event in the history of the Christian religion since the First Coming of Christ. i.e.– the Second Coming of Christ.
If the Second Coming of Christi is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.


My reply:

I will start with examining this comment because it is the whole basis for your entire book and it shows that you do not even know what JWs teach today much less 100 years ago. I cannot help but think that perhaps if you had learned what we taught you would not have become such an opposer and written a book full of so many misconceptions.

By the term 'second coming of Christ' you have told us that you are talking about Christ's parousia. The 'second coming' or parousia is not a one day or one year event as you seem to think. Therefore believing it had 'already happened' is in reality a misnomer unless we believe the parousia occurred and ended. You surely must know, that is not what we believe. It has not 'already happened'.

The start of the parousia began in 1914, but again it has not 'already happened'. It is happening and continues and will culminate in the final coming of Christ to execute judgment. So here in the year 2008, since we are still looking for that event to occur during the parousia, how could we possibly miss the parousia since we do not believe it has 'ALREADY HAPPENED'.(your incorrect words).

DonCameron wrote:
They were not waiting for his Second Coming in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier.

Now we can see just how you have erred in your philosophy about Russell and his beliefs in the 'second coming' or rightly called parousia or presence. They did not believe that the parousia happened 40 years earlier as you state above. You are misinformed and your statement is misleading.

They believed that the parousia BEGAN 40 years earlier, not HAPPENED 40 years earlier as in "ALREADY HAPPENED"(Don Cameron's inaccurate words). They believed that the parousia of Christ would continue onward until 1914. So were they looking for Christ's parousia in 1914. Yes they were. They were looking for the continuation of that parousia. They did not miss Christ's parousia at all.

True they believed the parousia began before it actually did, but they by no means missed it. They well believed in Christ's presence in 1914.

You, Don Cameron, have royally blundered in your writings and have attempted to mislead persons with your misinformation.

A lot has been written but lets make it simple for all to see Don Cameron's contradiction here:

He previously stated:
"he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ...."

On this thread he admits that in 1914:
"They (JWs) were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and establish his own righteous government."

Quite a contradiction.

Also Don Cameron alledges that Russell taught that the second coming of Christ or parousia had 'already happened' in 1874 and that JWs today teach that Christ's parousia 'ALREADY HAPPENED' in 1914 as if it happened and ended. That is not true is it Don Cameron? JWs teach that the parousia began in 1914 and continues on today. It has not 'ALREADY HAPPENED' has it?

Would you care to fess up on this subject also as you have grudgingly admitted you were wrong on so many other misconceptions found in your book?

No they did not miss the bus. Look at it this way.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1874? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 1875? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 1876? Yes.
...
...
Did they believe Jesus was present in 1913? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 1914? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 1915? Yes.
...
...
Did they believe Jesus was present in 2006? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 2007? Yes.
Did they believe Jesus was present in 2008? Yes.

So exactly how did JW's miss Jesus' presence or parousia?

Its over Don Cameron. Time to fess up.....AGAIN and admit another falsehood that you have perpetrated.

Don Cameron's misconcepts that he wants you to be captive to like him.

1. That the FDS did not receive authority from Jesus until 1919.

2. That JWs therefore cannot be God's organization if they did not receive the extra appointment in 1919.

3. That JWs were not watching and waiting for Jesus to come in 1914.

4. That Christ's parousia has 'already happened' in 1914.

5. That Russell thought Christ's parousia or 'second coming''already happened' in 1874.

6. That JWs unity is a forced unity (as if it is not a willing unity).

7. That JWs never used the word 'false' to describe their inaccurate teachings or beliefs.

8. That Russell never said anything about the nations going to war in 1914.

9. That Russell and Rutherford never knew about Jesus being invisibly present in kingdom power in 1914.

10. That JWs did not acknowledge Jesus return or coming invisibly for 29 years after the fact.

Am I leaving any out?

DonCameron wrote:
If the Second Coming of Christi is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.

This statement is a misconception by Don Cameron. JWs do not believe that Christ's 'second coming' or parousia or presence has already happened. He is here and his presence continues until he comes to execute judgment at Armageddon.

You said:“The 'second coming' is not a one day or one year event as you seem to think. Therefore believing it had 'already happened' is in reality a misnomer unless we believe the parousia occurred and ended. You surely must know, that is not what we believe. It has not 'already happened'.

I think a fundamental reason why we don’t agree on this matter of Christ’s invisible presence is because we are not looking it from the same viewpoint. I have in mind only the BEGINNING of his second presence either in 1874 or 1914 but you have in mind the ONGOING part of his presence that you believe has been taking place since Jesus arrived in 1914.

Note the position I take on page 7 under the heading,“Important Terms”:

“Christ’s invisible presence”: This term corresponds to what everyone else calls “the Second Coming of Christ” referred to at Matthew 24:3. The Society teaches that Jesus returned to BEGIN his “invisible presence” in 1914. But they explain that it was “not by his personally returning, even invisibly, to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King.”

Then on page 18 I also explain the following…

“Their teaching is that Jesus returned in 1914 to BEGIN his Second Coming or “invisible presence fulfillment of Matthew 24:3. Then in 1918 he began to make an examination of all the religions claiming to represent him to see if any of them had been faithfully and discreetly providing true teachings of the Bible (spiritual food) at the proper time during his absence. They say that the only religion he found doing so was the Watchtower Society and therefore Jesus appointed them over all his earthly interests or “belongings” in the spring of 1919.”

Isn’t that what you believe? Do you see any “misconceptions” in the above statements? If so let me know where.

Again, above you said,“Therefore believing (it had 'already happened' is in reality a misnomer unless we believe the parousia occurred and ended. You surely must know, that is not what we believe. It has not 'already happened'.

Although you believe that the ONGONGING part of Jesus’ presence has not ended, the BEGINNING of it has. In Russell's case I know that you believe just as it says on the top of page 47 of the “Proclaimers” book:“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN (i.e.“already happened”) in 1874.”

But as you also know, Jesus did NOT begin his invisible presence in 1874 and therefore there was never any ongoing presence from that date either.

And according to the “Proclaimers” book the Society didn’t realize that Jesus’ invisible presence actually began in 1914 until 1943.

In my book I try to help the reader see the significance of that fact. Among other things it means that the organization’s history does not agree with the way they interpret Matthew 24:45-47.

For example, there is nothing in Jesus’ illustration or the Society’s interpretation of it that suggests that the Master’s faithful and discreet slave would announce the wrong date of his Master’s return for 67 years (1876 to 1943). Nor is their any suggestion that once the Master arrived (in 1914) that it would take his slave 29 years to figure out when he had arrived.–(1914 to 1943)

My purpose in writing is not to mislead anyone to believe anything that is not true. Rather it is to try to help the reader to understand how Jehovah’s Witnesses have already been misled to believe several extremely important matters about the Watchtower organization that are not true.

What I have noticed is that those who ready to face the truth about the Watchtower religion APPRECIATE what I have to say and they way I say it. But those who are not ready to face the truth RESENT what I have to say no matter how I say it.

DonCameron wrote:
I have in mind only the BEGINNING of his second presence either in 1874 or 1914 but you have in mind the ONGOING part of his presence that you believe has been taking place since Jesus arrived in 1914.

Why? Isn't it true that you look at things in that way because that is the only way you can possibly make your point even though it disregards what JWs really believe?

DonCameron wrote:
In Russell's case I know that you believe just as it says on the top of page 47 of the “Proclaimers” book:“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN (i.e.“already happened”) in 1874.”

That is the misleading part. You add YOUR inaccurate wording to what Russell believed. He did not believe the presence had 'already happened'. He believed it had begun and was continuing on. In 1914 he did not miss Christ's presence since he believed Christ was indeed in his invisible presence in 1914. That is the facts. Not your false rendition and false words--"ALREADY HAPPENED".

Do you think it is honest to change the words and beliefs of Russell and then prove that belief that you have invented as wrong? Thats what you call a strawman. And that is what you have built.

DonCameron wrote:
And according to the “Proclaimers” book the Society didn’t realize that Jesus’ invisible presence actually began in 1914 until 1943.

This statement is also misleading. They believed that in 1914 Jesus was invisibly present. They believed in 1914 that Jesus had taken his power and began ruling. Therefore they believed that Jesus began ruling in Kingdom power in his invisible presence in 1914.

Rutherford and Russell both believed that Jesus began ruling in invisible Kingdom power in 1914 in his parousia or presence. How could they have possibly missed it?


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DonCameron wrote:
If the Second Coming of Christi is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.

The second coming or parousia or presence of Christ IS yet future because it continues on into the future. It has not already happened. You have been caught once again in a false statement.

Topsy Cretts wrote:
Don I dont think you ouright lied, but you have defeinetly not provided the reader all the information they need to truly understand JW Theology well enough to make an informed decision.

This is where I disagree with Topsy. I believe you are knowingly perpetrating untruth. And I can prove it with a few simple questions that if Don Cameron will answer it will show he is either being dishonest now or what he has written in his book is dishonest.

Are the following true or false statements:

1. he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ....

2 Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

3. They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

4. They were not waiting for his Second Coming (presence) in 1914 because they believe that event HAPPENED 40 years earlier.

5. If the Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it ALREADY HAPPENED.

6.... the MOST IMPORTANT Scripture in their (WT) theology....Matthew 24:45-47.

7. If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008.

NOTE: Normally I address my posts directly to ThirdWitness. Not this time. This time I’m addressing it to everyone who hasn’t noticed yet that he has misrepresented what I have said in every one of his posts.

Seems to me that if what I have said really isn’t true then he would never have to misrepresent what I have said in order to prove it. The following is a recent example where he not only misrepresents what I said, he also unintentionally misrepresents what the “Proclaimers” book says on this matter.

Here is what TW said:“Don Cameron alleges that Russell taught that the second coming of Christ or parousia had 'already happened' in 1874.”

What I have ‘alleged’ is that Russell taught that the BEGINNING of Christ’s invisible presence had already happened in 1874. I said this because this is what the “Proclaimers” book says on the top of page 47:“(In 1876) Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN in 1874.

When “beginning” and “begun” are left in then what I have said and what the “Proclaimers” book says are EXACTLY the same thing TW says. But rather than leaving the word “beginning” in my statement he removes it and then accuses me of lying about what the “Proclaimes” book says.

Is TW doing this on purpose in order to intentionally mislead this Forum? I cannot read his motive. But I think part of it has to do with his deep-seated need to keep CONVINCING HIMSELF that that no matter what, the Society MUST be Jehovah’s organization.

“Captives of a Concept” got in his way. In order to get it out his way he has had to misread it in such a way that forces the book to appear to say all kinds of things that are not true. Again, is he doing this consciously in order to discredit me any my book? Maybe not. But he has done it over and over again. I’m willing to leave it up to God to understand WHY he is doing it.

Don

P.S. What is what TW is doing called? The Society calls it “propaganda.” Here is an example of what Watchtower propaganda looks like. To me it looks very similar to what TW has been saying about me and my book…

“The Devil and other opposers of true worship are skilled in deception. We should never forget that they stand every ready to break our integrity if they can. Their propaganda is designed to weaken our faith, to cool our love for God…The only satisfaction, of a perverted kind, may come in be-ginning to beat one’s fellow slaves with slander and half-truths. At Proverbs 11:9 we are told,“By the mouth of the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin.”…Therefore, resolve in your heart that you will never even touch the poison that apostates want you to sip. Heed the wise but firm commands of Jehovah to avoid completely those who would deceive you, mislead you, turn you aside into the ways of death. If we love Jehovah with our whole heart, soul, and mind, while loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, we will have no room for penetration by apostate thinking.”

I would think that ThirdWitness would be very pleased if the whole world would apply the above to me and my book.

P.P.S. Notice the above last statement. It says (without actually saying) that anyone who reads “Captives of a Concept” is breaking to two Commandments Jesus gave us about loving Jehovah with our whole heart, soul and mind, while loving our neighbor as we love ourselves.

3W has a point because the way the second coming is presented by Don is not entirely accurate. Don does not offer up or really explain in detail how JW consider teh "second coming" or "second advent" into two phases.

1) The presence

2) The return

Many Christian denominations do not teach or understand the JW proposed two phase approach to Jesus Second coming. I really dont think DON expands on that enough and he leaves the reader with teh impression that the Biblestudents were not waiting for Jesus in 1914. He bases his claim that Jesus rejected the WTS (a counter presumption IMHO)based on the fact they thought he had already come.

That is not correct. they thought his presence had begun in 1876 and would continue until his return in 1914. All the things they predicted would happen in 1914 were things that would have Jesus at the helm bringing those things to mankind (Don listed these at teh beggining of the thread).

So on the premise that they were not waiting for Jesus and therefore would not follow his inspection is a false premise. The fact remains they were waiting on Jesus to do something. They changed what that something was no doubt, but no matter how you slice it that "something" they were waiting for Jesus to do was being expected in 1914. Therefore the reasoning behind DON's premise that JW (or Bible Students)were not waiting for Jesus is wrong.

Hi Topsy,

I’m a little surprised that you do the same thing ThirdWitness does. You too remove the word “BEGIN” from what I have said and then say that I leave the reader with a false impression about what the Society teaches about the Second Coming of Christ. The difference between you and TW is that I know for sure that you don’t do this on purpose.(With TW I’m not so sure.)

You said that I ‘leave the reader with the impression that the Bible Students were not waiting for Jesus in 1914.’

But Topsy, if you would read my book you would know that I don’t leave the reader with just an IMPRESSION that the Bible Students were not watching for Jesus to BEGIN his Second Coming in 1914. I leave them with the FACT that there were not watching for him to BEGIN his Second Coming in 1914.

And why not? As you well know, it was because they believed that he had already returned to BEGIN his Second Coming 40 years earlier in 1874. His ongoing presence since 1874 has nothing to do with when his presence BEGAN.

But as you also know, Jesus’ presence did NOT begin in 1874 and therefore there was no ongoing presence since 1874. Everything Russell taught about those things was “a godless myth”(to use one of the Society’s expressions that they use for teachings that were not true.)

You concluded that,“Therefore the reasoning behind Don’s premise that JW were not waiting for Jesus is wrong.” But look what happens when I replace the words that you removed from what I have said…

"JWs were not waiting for Jesus’ TO BEGIN HIS SECOND COMING IN 1914."

All of the sudden my premise is RIGHT. You know as well as anyone that there wasn’t anyone connected with the Watchtower Society who was watching for Jesus’ Second Coming (invisible presence) to BEGIN in 1914.

There has never been a single Witness (“Bible Student”) who has ever looked forward to the Second Coming of Christ, let alone looking forward to 1914 for his Second Coming.(If you need me to explain that one let me know.)

And if you do not well know, according to he “Proclaimers” book there wasn’t anyone connected with the Society who realized that Jesus BEGAN his Second Coming in 1914 until 1943.

It seems more than evident to me that Jehovah didn’t help Russell understand anything having to do with the return of his Son to begin his Second Coming. And according to the “Proclaimers” book He didn’t help Rutherford either.

Why not? I can think of two possible reasons:

1) Jehovah didn’t think those men were faithful or discreet enough to let them know what He and his Son were doing.

2) Their teaching about the Second Coming of Christ is just an illusion that exists only in the minds of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

...However, do you explain in your book the difference between teh beggining of the coming, Jesus invisible presence(according to JW theology) and the culmination or end of this presence which would be his return at Armegeddon?

I think explaining that would provide the reader with a better reference to distinguish the facts behind your claims. In all fairness since I have not read the book you may explain that. But I think the word "BEGAN" might slip by many who dont know the "two phase approach (trademark)" that JW teach about Jesus's coming.

But the question that was asked by Thirdwitness and the statememnts I have seen you make before suggested to me that you say the JW's were not waiting for Jesus in 1914. They were watiing for the end of his presence, his return, and you readily admit this.

Good morning Topsy,

You asked,“Do you explain in your book the difference between the beginning of the coming, Jesus invisible presence and the culmination or end of this presence which would be his return at Armageddon?’

No I don’t.

The reason I don’t is because for the purpose of my book it isn’t necessary to understand the difference between the beginning of Jesus’ invisible presence and the end of his invisible presence. It is only necessary to understand THE SIGNIFICANCE of what the Society used to teach about the BEGINNING of Jesus’ Second Coming in 1874 and the SIGNIFICANCE of the fact that they didn’t switch the date to 1914 until several years after 1919 - not until 1943 according to the “Proclaimers” book.

I take this approach on this subject in order to try to show ONE of the extremely important matters where the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 and what actually went on the organization’s history do not agree with each other. And that once the significance of this fact is clearly seen it means that the Watchtower Society has never been Jehovah’s organization.

Or as Ray Franz expressed it…“It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it had been teaching as of 1919.”

When/if you ever do read his book you will finally understand why it said this.

Topsy, please correct me if I have misunderstood you, but haven’t you said that you don’t believe that Jesus has returned to begin his invisible presence yet either?

A Suggestion: Since you feel that it is so important for the world understand the Society’s teaching about the difference between the beginning and the end of Jesus’ invisible presence have you considered writing your own book in order to explain it?

DonCameron wrote:
What about the fact Jesus would have noticed what the Society was teaching about the Trinity, hell, the condition of the dead, etc.?

You have emphasized those kind of teachings several times as you feel the Society would have
passed Jesus’ exam on such teachings.

But on page 622 of the “Proclaimers” book the Governing Body acknowledges that the Society was not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters."


I have examined page 622 of the Proclaimers book and I have failed to find where the WTS has acknowledged on that page that they were 'not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.' Perhaps Don Cameron would be so kind as to show us where this is written on page 622 in the Proclaimers book. The closest thing to that that I have found is this quote:

"Many of Christendom’s scholars, too, know that these doctrines are not taught in the Bible, but that is not generally what their preachers say from the pulpits." and this quote: "Other Bible scholars had likewise perceived SOME of these things and had advocated them."

So unless scholars make up a religion unto themselves, for example The First Church of Scholars or The Scholarly Church of Christ, then that is no basis for saying that JWs were 'not the only religions who taught the same things.' And even if scholars were a religion unto themselves that certainly does not mean that they taught ALL the same Bibically proven truths that Russell and the Bible students taught.

It surely seems like more deceit on the part of Don Cameron and a mischaracterization of what page 622 says. And it is surely ironic that while trying to prove the WTS to be deceptive he himself engages in deception. But perhaps I am wrong and Don Cameron will show us where the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters."

DonCameron wrote:
...it was just that he (Russell) did a better job of publishing them (Bible truths) than anyone else.

Don Cameron perhaps thinks that this fact would be unimportant to Jesus. I wonder if it would be unimportant to Jesus that his organization do a 'better job' than all others at publishing Bible truths? Let me think for a minute. Oh yes, Jesus did say, "This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in ALL THE INHABITED EARTH for a witness TO ALL THE NATIONS and then the END WILL COME".

Russell's sermons printed in the newspaper are estimated to have had 12 million to 15 million readers in the US. One source said that he had become the most famous minister in the world at this time. The message he was bringing forth was so widespread that in 1908 his publications were the 3rd widely distributed publication only surpassed by of course the Bible and also the Chinese Almanac.

I wonder if Jesus noticed this. And I wonder if Jesus would have noticed what even Russell's enemies noticed. One such enemy of C.T. Russell once declared that his writings had a "greater circulation every week than those of any other living man; a greater, doubtless, than the combined circulation of the writings of all the priests and preachers in North America..."

It only seems logical to me that Jesus would want his organization to have the capacity and the potential to preach this good new in ALL the inhabited earth better than anyone else since it would be a life saving work that needed to be preached worldwide before the end came. So even if it were true that other religions taught ALL the same truths as JWs it surely seems it would be a factor that they were not publishing these truths to the extent that JWs were.

Now some will say that all they did was publish books and written material and that is not what Christ wanted. But I can't help but look at the example that his Father set for us. Jehovah sure seemed to think that the best way to get his message out to people was in written form. Thus we have God's word the Bible in written form. I know of no better example to follow than that of the Most High God. And it is also noteworthy that the Bible is the most widespread book in all the world. And what a coincidence that the WT publications are also the most widespread relgious books that explain the Bible in all the world.

Maybe, just maybe, Jesus did recognize his organization as JWs. And maybe, just maybe, he has directed them to preach the good news of the Kingdom and all the truth that it entails worldwide. No other religion is teaching these truths worldwide, are they Don Cameron? Perhaps you can enlighten us as to who it is.

So lets assume that there were other religions teaching ALL the same truths as JWs in 1914 (which Don Cameron has not proven). And we have to make an educated guess as to which one was Jehovah's organization. I know of no other way but to look and see which one was doing the best job at publicizing these truths at the time and even on into the future since it was Jesus that said that this good news would be preached in all the inhabited earth and THEN THE END WOULD COME. Therefore it only seems logical to me that we would try to find the organization that is preaching all these truths worldwide right up until the end comes not just the one or ones doing it in the early 1900s.

Do you know a better way to recognize who God's organization is, than what Jesus said they would be doing before the End came, Don Cameron? The proof is in the results of what has taken place not only around 1914, but also in the years thereafter, wouldn't you agree Don Cameron?

DonCameron wrote:
Good morning Topsy,
You asked,“Do you explain in your book the difference between the beginning of the coming, Jesus invisible presence and the culmination or end of this presence which would be his return at Armageddon?’

No I don’t.

That is very interesting. Don Cameron admits that he purposely leaves out what JWs believed about the 'second coming' or parousia of Christ.

He tells us that JWs believed that it 'already happened' or that 'it happened 40 years' before 1914. This is simply not true is it Don Cameron? He does not think it important to inform his reader that JWs believe that Christ came in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia. At no point before 1914 or after 1914 did JWs ever believe that Christ's parousia had 'already happened' or 'happened 40 years earlier'.

Do you know, Don Cameron, that in 1914 JWs believed that Jesus was in his parousia or 2nd coming, STILL. How then did they miss him coming in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia or 2nd coming? That would be impossible.

This statement is then true: Jesus invisible parousia/presence in kingdom power began in 1914? JWs have preached that since 1914 and before, don't you agree?

ThirdWitness said,“Perhaps I am wrong and Don Cameron will show us where the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters." - See Post #98.

OK, here goes…

Previously I have said that according to page 622 of the “Proclaimers” book Russell was not the only one who taught the same things he did about subjects like the Trinity, immortality of the soul, that Christ would return as a glorious spirit person, that the year 1914 would mark the end of the Gentile Times, etc.

After mentioning those “core teachings” page 622 then explains,“Other Bible scholars had likewise perceived some of these things and had advocated them.”

Which “Bible scholars” are they talking about? What religion(s) did they belong to?

The “Proclaimers” book doesn’t say. But there were the Christadelphians and Seventh-Day Adventists to name a couple.- See Post #101 by SpannerUK.

I have also referred to page 45 under that heading “Influence of Others” where it explains how Russell needed help from others to understand the condition of the dead, that the soul is mortal and that immortality is a gift to be attained by faithful Christians. He was also helped to understand there is no eternal torment.

On the top of page 46 it says,“(George Storrs) had a strong, positive influence on young Charles t. Russell.”

Then of course there was Nelson Barbour who taught Russell that Jesus had already returned to begin his Second Coming in 1874 and that the Gentile Times began in 606 B.C.E. and that they would end in 1914.

My reason for mentioning these teaching from the “Proclaimers” book is to show that Russell was not the only one who was teaching them. And that before he could teach them to others, someone had to teach them to him.

Does that fact mean that the ones to taught these “core teachings” to Russell were members of Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave”? If not, why not?

The point I was trying to make is that if these doctrines would have passed Jesus’ food-at-the-proper-time examination they would have passed no matter who was teaching them.*

TW and Topsy place great emphasis on what they call these “core teachings.” Their belief seems to be that as long as Russell and Rutherford didn’t teach the Trinity, immortality of the soul, hellfire, and a very few other things) that it didn't matter to Jehovah how many times Russell and Rutherford put His Name on every one of their “Godless myths”– and there were lots of them.(That's one of the Society’s expressions.)

But the way I read the Bible I DO think it would have mattered to Him. I don’t want to be standing too close to the Society’s religious leaders when Jesus does return and asks the question,“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave? Especially when I know the Governing Body’ answer will be,“Here we are!”

Don

*P.S. As far as “Christian Neutrality” was concerned back there, I recall reading one of Russell’s ‘sermons’(or whatever it was called) where he did not advocate staying out of the military the way the Society does today. But he did recommend that Bible Students shoot over the heads of the enemy in order to try avoiding killing someone.

I know that Quakers weren’t too anxious to go into the army either. According to the movie “Friendly Persuasion”(with Pat Boone) Mormons weren’t either.

Don Cameron wrote: ThirdWitness said,“Perhaps I am wrong and Don Cameron will show us where the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters." - See Post #98.

OK, here goes…

I noticed that you said ok here goes but then you merely quoted what I had already quoted which does not say that they were 'not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.'

So I will say again that Perhaps Don Cameron would be so kind as to show us where this is written on page 622 in the Proclaimers book.

I also see that you fail to address how Jesus would no doubt want as his organization those people who were publicizing these Bible truths better than all others.

"This good news of the Kingdom must be preached in ALL THE INHABITED EARTH for a witness to ALL THE NATIONS and then THE END WILL COME."

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SpannerUK wrote:
The Christadelphians, for example, were formed in the 19th century, and their teachings are very similar to those of the Watchtower, as can be seen from the link below:
http://www.christadelphian.org/beliefs.htm

My reply:

Seems the Christadelphians did not believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence. Seems they also have not preached the good new of the Kindom worldwide having only 50,000 members at this time. I would just take an educated guess based on this and say that they are not preaching this good news of the kingdom worldwide. But perhaps I am wrong.

Wait. There is a knock at my door. I think it is a Christadelphian. No, my bad. Just one of those pesty old Jehovah's Witnesses.

If the Christadelphians are God's organization they have done a very poor job thus far of fulfilling Matthew 24:14. I have never had one contact me nor anyone I have ever talked to about it in my entire life. Maybe Jesus makes poor decisions? Or more likely they were not the ones that Jesus recognized as his people since they were not doing the best job at preaching this good news worldwide and did not have the capacity and potential to preach this good new worldwide. What do you think, Don Cameron?

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DonCameron wrote:
But there were the ...Seventh-Day Adventists...- See Post #101 by SpannerUK.

Seems you, Don Cameron, are eager to believe whatever anyone tells you that may back up your point without doing any research on your own. I just have to wonder why that is. Do you care about truth at all or just promoting your book based on deception and misinformation. When I went to the 7th Day Adventist site the first thing I saw was this quote:

"Seventh-day Adventists believe that Jesus is one of the three persons, called the Trinity, who make up our one God. "

Hmmmm. So much for the 7th Day Adventist teaching the basic Bible truths that Russell recognized. I would suggest a little research on your part next time before making such a committment or before writing a book for that matter. But you seem to be not much on research at all. You certainly have shown that you do not even know JWs beliefs at all although you claim you were a JW for some years. What gives?

DonCameron wrote:
I have also referred to page 45 under that heading “Influence of Others” where it explains how Russell needed help from others ...On the top of page 46 it says,“(George Storrs) had a strong, positive influence on young Charles t. Russell.”
Then of course there was Nelson Barbour

Please correct me if I am wrong but I was not aware that George Storrs or Nelson Barbour or any of these individuals that helped Russell learn the basic Bible truths make up 'religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.' Maybe you can show me in the Proclaimers book on page 622 where I am wrong about that. Are these individuals consider 'religions'?

DonCameron wrote:
1)“Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says. I’m just helping the reader notice that this is what the “Proclaimers” book says and where it says it. If you don’t know that this is what the “Proclaimers” book teaches that doesn’t mean that I am misleading anyone. It just means that you don’t realize that this is what the “Proclaimers” book teaches. If you need help finding where the book teaches it let me know.

Yes I need help finding where the Proclaimers book says,“Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.” I have not been able to find this in that book or any other WT publication. Please tell us what page we can find this quote in the book. I sure hope it is not just more deception by Don Cameron.

ThirdWitness continues to misrepresent what I have said in my book. This time he said,“I can prove (Cameron has “perpetrated untruth”) with a few simple questions that if Don Cameron will answer it will show he is either being dishonest now, or what he has written in his book dishonest.”

But in order to prove that I am lying he has once again removed the words BEGIN. BEGINNING, BEGAN or BEGUN from my statements despite the fact that I have tried several times to help him notice that when he does this it is unethical. Apparently lhe dodn't care because he keeps doing it.

I will reinsert the above words that he left out of my statements…

He asked: "Are the following true or false statements:"

1.“He (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching FOR HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE TO BEGIN in 1914.” That statement is now true.

2 “Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE.” According to the “Proclaimers” book that statement is true.

3.“They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return TO BEGIN IS INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914. That statement is now true.

4.“They were not waiting for his Second Coming (presence) TO BEGIN in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier. That statement is now true.

5.“If the BEGINNING OF THE Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.

6.“The most important Scripture in WT theology....Matthew 24:45-47.” This is a true statement. It’s just that ThirdWitness (and even his Governing Body) doesn’t realize that this is the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology.

7.“If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008.” According to the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 as explained by former President Frederick Franz, this is a true statement.

Third/Witness has his own interpretation of Mathew 24:45-47 that doesn’t agree with the Society’s interpretation.

ThirdWitness seems to be living under the illusion that as long as HE SAYS something is not true it proves that is not true. It seems that he is incapable of being able to discern what is or is not true about me or "Captives of a Concept."

The "Proclaimers" Book and the Change of the Date From 1874 to 1914

ThirdWitness said,“I need help finding where the Proclaimers book says,’Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.” I have not been able to find this in that book or any other WT publication. Please tell us what page we can find this quote in the book. I sure hope it is not just more deception by Don Cameron.”

Go to page 133. CAREFULLY read the footnote that is attached to the paragraph’s reference to 1874. It is explaining some of the “flawed chronology” that led to the wrong date of 1874 for the beginning of Christ’s invisible presence.

Then it explains that “a clearer understanding of Bible chronology was published in 1943, in the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.”

What was that “clearer understanding? In my footnote #38 on page 22 I explain…

The (“Proclaimers”) footnote refers to the 1943 book The Truth Shall Make You Free that changed the date of Jesus’ return from 1874 to 1914. Page 209 of 'God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached' refers to this same 1943 book where the Society’s new understanding of the end of six thousand years of man’s existence ‘did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.’

I don’t blame ThirdWitness for not being able to notice that this is what the “Proclaimers” book is saying. I blame the Governing Body. Although they ARE explaining when the switch was made from 1874 to 1914, they do it in such a complicated way that there may not be ANY Witness who has notice what the “Proclaimers” book is saying.



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Don Cameron stated and I quote: "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says." end of quote.

I asked Don Cameron to please show me what page this is located and he tells me about a footnote in the book that does not have his statement contained in that footnote. Here is his reply:

DonCameron wrote:
Go to page 133. CAREFULLY read the footnote that is attached to the paragraph’s reference to 1874. It is explaining some of the “flawed chronology” that led to the wrong date of 1874 for the beginning of Christ’s invisible presence.
Then it explains that “a clearer understanding of Bible chronology was published in 1943, in the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.”
What was that “clearer understanding? In my footnote #38 on page 22 I explain…
The (“Proclaimers”) footnote refers to the 1943 book The Truth Shall Make You Free that changed the date of Jesus’ return from 1874 to 1914.

Perhaps you have misunderstood my question. I asked on what page the book states this which you have alledged:

"Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says." (End of Don Cameron statement).

It is really a simple question. Merely tell us what page it is that states: "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
and you will have proven what you stated. Otherwise, everyone is going to think that you lied when you said:
"That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says."

You don't want us to think you have been dishonest, do you Mr. Cameron?

We are also still waiting for Don Cameron to show us where the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters."

And then after that perhaps you can name those religions for us (We know its not Christadelphians or 7th Day Adventists) and show us how they were publicizing these basic Bible truths to a greater extent than JWs. After all, it is logical to believe that Jesus' faithful and discreet slave would be the most adept at publicizing these truths, don't you think?

DonCameron wrote:
ThirdWitness continues to misrepresent what I have said in my book. This time he said,“I can prove (Cameron has “perpetrated untruth”) with a few simple questions that if Don Cameron will answer it will show he is either being dishonest now, or what he has written in his book dishonest.”
But in order to prove that I am lying he has once again removed the words BEGIN. BEGINNING, BEGAN or BEGUN from my statements despite the fact that I have tried several times to help him notice that when he does this it is unethical.

ThirdWitness seems to be living under the illusion that as long as HE SAYS something is not true it proves that is not true. It seems that he is incapable of being able to discern what is or is not true about me or "Captives of a Concept."

How have I misrepresented what you have said? I have quoted you directly. I have not removed words from your quotes. You yourself are the one that is NOW misrepresenting what you said by adding words. First I will quote what you previously stated and then I will quote what you NOW are stating:

1. "he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914"

Now Don Cameron adds words to his quote and states:“He (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching FOR HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE TO BEGIN in 1914.”

2. "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914."

Now:“Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE.”

3. "They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

Now:“They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return TO BEGIN IS INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914.

4. "They were not waiting for his Second Coming in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier."

Now:“They were not waiting for his Second Coming (presence) TO BEGIN in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier."

5. "If the Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened."

Now:“If the BEGINNING OF THE Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened."

6. Now: "“The most important Scripture in WT theology....Matthew 24:45-47.” This is a true statement. It’s just that ThirdWitness (and even his Governing Body) doesn’t realize that this is the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology."

On this point Don Cameron outrightly admits that he misrepresents what JWs believe. He outrightly admits that he has built a strawman by inventing a teaching for JWs that they do not have and then tearing down that invented strawman.

7.“If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008.”

Here Don Cameron contradicts himself when he was forced to later admit this:
"You correctly pointed out that the Society’s teaching is that the appointment mentioned Matthew 24:47 does NOT refer to an appointment to become Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave." ...That verse does not say,“He will appointment him to be his faithful and discreet Slave.’ "

You will see in each case it is not Thirdwitness that changes his quotes. It is Don Cameron himself who NOW is adding words to his original statements. He has attempted to mislead and misrepresent what he has said by NOW adding these words: "TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE".

Since that phrase does not originally appear in his quotes then it becomes quite apparent that Don Cameron, by attempting to misquote himself, has attempted to mislead, deceive, and misinform his readers by leaving out vital information.

I stated this:“I can prove (Cameron has “perpetrated untruth”) with a few simple questions that if Don Cameron will answer it will show he is either being dishonest now, or what he has written in his book dishonest.” Now I have done so.

It is Don Cameron that seems to be living under the illusion that as long as HE SAYS something is true it proves that it is true. He is a "Captive of his own Misconcepts." He wants you to blindly join him in his captivity.

JeanD_NW wrote:
There are many religions which have some of the WT teachings emphasized. Mormons don't believe Christ is the Father. They don't believe in Hell. They believe God is in some other part of the universe(not the Pleides, somewhere else). The Armstrong people taught MUCH of what you now do, though they have backed off from a lot of it. So what?.

So this is the names of the religions you came up with that teach ALL the same basic truths that JWs teach.

The Mormons who believe that Jehovah in the old testament is Jesus in the New Testament. Hmmm Seems to be another failed attempt.

Worldwide Church of God that have reverted back to the pagan Trinity teaching. Hmmm. Another failed attempt.

So Jean, are you admitting that you cannot name a religion that teaches all the basic doctrines that JWs taught in 1914? And in addition, you cannot name a religion that teaches those basic Bible truths to the extent that JWs do worldwide?

Who will step forward and support Don Cameron's contention that he said is in the Proclaimers book but that really does not seem to be there at all? That there were other relgions teaching ALL the basic Bible truths that JWs were teaching.

Something is amiss. Someone is trying to put words in Don Cameron's mouth by purposely misquoting him. How unethical can a person be to actually quote another person and then attempt to add words to the quote that were not originally there. You may find it hard to believe but I am sticking up for Don Cameron against this person that lyingly misquotes him. Lets me show you what I mean.

First I will quote what Don Cameron originally wrote. Then I will show the misquote that this unethical person is trying to perpetrate.

1. "he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914"

The misquote:“He (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching FOR HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE TO BEGIN in 1914.”

2. "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914."

The misquote:“Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE.”

3. "They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

The misquote:“They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return TO BEGIN IS INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914.

4. "They were not waiting for his Second Coming in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier."

The misquote:“They were not waiting for his Second Coming (presence) TO BEGIN in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier."

5. "If the Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened."

The misquote:“If the BEGINNING OF THE Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened."

This same person also tries to contradict Don Cameron. Let me show you. First I will show what Don Cameron wrote and then show what this person said that contradicts him.

1. "he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ...."--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: "They were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and establish his own righteous government....They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come in order to be present as earth’s new Ruler."

2. Keeping in mind that JWs teach that the FDS is God's organization of anointed ones:

"If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008."--Cameron.

Contradiction: "the Society’s teaching is that the appointment mentioned Matthew 24:47 does NOT refer to an appointment to become Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave." ...That verse does not say,“He will appointment him to be his faithful and discreet Slave.’ "

3. "they have HAD TO ELIMINATE EVERY TRACE of the organization's teachings and prophecies that were ever false."--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: "the Society has freely acknowledge that their understanding of God’s purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years"

4. Their literature simply refuses to use the word “false” in connection with anything the Society has ever taught no matter how false it was.--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: There are actually "a few isolated instances where they DID use that word."

It shouldn't surprise us at all that this person has misquoted Don Cameron. He did the same thing as regards the WT publications.

He stated: ""Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says."

And he also said that the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters."

Yet we could not find those quotes in the WT publications anywhere and he refused to show us where those quotes came from in the WT publications.

And I looked back on the threads and saw that the same guy invented JW teachings that the WT publications never advocated. Let me show you some examples. First I will quote the guy then I will show where the WT publications did not teach what he said.

Deceptive misconceptions about the beliefs of JWs:

1. "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914."

Feb 15, 1915 WT: "We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914."

Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922, Brother Rutherford stated:
"“... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns."

HARP OF GOD, 1921, PAGE 244:
"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914...the Lord Jesus Christ,...stood up and began to exercise his power."

2. "Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

WT Oct, 1913: "October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign...At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

3. "The Society had waited until 1950 (or so) to restore Jehovah’s Name to the Hebrew Scriptures in their NWT."

Another misleading mischaracterization. The NWT did not even exist until the 1950s. How could JWs possibly restore the name in their NWT Bible that didn't even exist?

4. " .... the MOST IMPORTANT Scripture in their (WT) theology....Matthew 24:45-47"

Nov 1, 1993 WT: "Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING--WHO IS GOD? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the MOST IMPORTANT ONE?"

5. "And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority at THAT time, they would not have that authority at THIS time."

But does his reasoning coincide with scriptures and JW beliefs?

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..."

Matt 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

Matt 28:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations..."

2 Cor 5:20 The anointed fds are "ambassadors substituting for Christ". Sure seems like there would be a lot of authority in being ambassadors of Jesus in his absence.

The authority to provide the food at the proper time, to act as ambassadors for Christ, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom was given to the FDS long before 1919?

6. "My Problem: I have not been able to find that prophecy. If you know where Russell had foretold the beginning of a war that would break out in Europe in 1914 please let me know where you found it. I would then apologize for suggesting the Governing Body has not told the truth in this instance."

From The Battle of Armageddon published in 1889, 25 years before 1914, page 543:

"In previous chapters we have noted the work of preparation for the conflict of this evil day; — the organizing, equipping and drilling of immense armies, the building of great navies, the invention of new and wonderful engines of war, the making of new and powerful explosives, and the draining of the national resources in every land for purposes of military equipment; and we have noted the mutterings of the angry nations as they all stand armed to the teeth, scowling upon one another."

The Battle of Armageddon published in 1897

After telling of the "EXTRAVAGANT PREPARATIONS FOR WAR" that the nations are making and about their "MODERN IMPLEMENTS OF WAR" on page 142-3 it is stated further in this book, The Battle of Armageddon:

"The prophecy of Joel (3:9-11) is surely being fulfilled in the wonderful preparations for war now being made among the nations. Prophetically, he voiced the sentiments of these times, saying, "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles: Prepare war,..."

Is not this the world-wide proclamation of the present time? Are not the mighty and the weak all nerving themselves for the coming conflict? Is not even the professed church of Christ marshalling the young boys and inspiring them with the spirit of war? Are not the men who otherwise would be following the plow and pruning the trees forging and handling instead the weapons of war? And are not the nations all assembling their mighty hosts and draining their financial resources beyond the powers of long endurance, in order thus to prepare for the exigencies of war — the great trouble which they see fast approaching?" end of quote.

7. "Their literature simply refuses to use the word “false” in connection with anything the Society has ever taught no matter how false it was."

Time is at Hand, 1916 edition. Opening forward:
"Our mistake was evidently not in respect to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles; we drew a FALSE conclusion, however, not authorized by the Word of the Lord."

9-1-83 wt
"Although the Bible Students had elders and deacons (ministerial servants), FALSE religious ideas still prevailed in some respects."

5-1-55 WT:
"Though Jehovah’s people from the 1870’s to 1918 had gradually changed over much of their basic religious thinking from the corrupt teachings of the Babylonish religion of apostate nominal churches, yet to a great degree they still were held in restraint by tainted bonds of FALSE conceptions and practices inherited from the pagan traditions adopted by Christendom."

IP book, page 380:
"In 1919, however, things changed. Jehovah brought his people out of captivity. They began to reject the FALSE teachings that had earlier corrupted their worship. As a result, they enjoyed a healing."

8. "I suspect that the first thing Jesus would notice is that there is not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return because they believe he already returned 93 years ago."

Proclaimers book page 716: "The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind."

KM July, 1995: "Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance."

Oct 1, 1978 WT: "Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment."

9. "I know they ‘fiddle around’ with another “coming”(a Third Coming?) that has nothing to do with Jesus’ return in 1914 to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence.”"

There is no "third coming" advocated in the WT publications. And his coming at Armageddon has everything to do with his parousia. It is the final part of the parousia. Christ parousia did not just happen in 1914 and end that same year. It is during Christ parousia which only began in 1914 that he accomplishes many things. The last of which is his coming to execute those that oppose him at Armageddon.

10. "“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN (i.e.“already happened”) in 1874.”"

He adds the inaccurate wording to what Russell believed. He did not believe the presence had 'already happened'. He believed it had begun and was continuing on. In 1914 he did not miss Christ's presence since he believed Christ was indeed in his invisible presence in 1914. That is the facts. Not your false rendition and false words--"ALREADY HAPPENED".



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This person even admits that he invents JW teachings and creates strawmen:

"“The most important Scripture in WT theology....Matthew 24:45-47.” This is a true statement. It’s just that ThirdWitness (and even his Governing Body) doesn’t realize that this is the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology."

So this person has misquoted Don Cameron, contradicted Don Cameron, invented JW strawmen and admitted it, and alledged quotes from WT publications that do not exist.

This is the guy that you need to be denouncing as dishonest and unethical, don't you think? What do you think Don Cameron?

DonCameron wrote:
"If anyone still cares, ThirdWitness and I have a 'difference of opinion.'
Our difference began so long ago that I hope we are still talking about the same issue.
His position is that the Witnesses (Bible Students) were “watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914.” Several times he has asked me,“Were they watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914 – Yes or No?"
But every time I say that the Witnesses were NOT watching or waiting for Jesus “TO BEGIN HIS SECOND COMING IN 1914,” he accuses me of saying that the Witnesses were not “watching for Jesus in 1914.” He always leaves the “to begin his Second Coming in 1914”(or 1874) part off of what I’m saying in my book. And then he accuses me of deliberately lying about what the Society teaches in order to deceive. "

The reason I leave the part off when I quote you such as "to begin his Second Coming in 1914" is because YOU purposely leave it off YOURSELF when you come on these sites trying to mislead the unwary. For example, lets look at what you copy and paste on this and other sites and as you look please take note of the misleading words used by Don Cameron which I will capitalize.

"As you probably already know, from 1876 until his death in 1916 Russell mistakenly taught that Jesus’ Second Coming OCCURRED in 1874.(I do not see the word began). But you may not know that according to the “Proclaimers” book the Society kept teaching that wrong date until 1943. But that fact means more then simply that it wasn’t true. It also means several other things…

1) The Society’s first two presidents never knew when Jesus RETURNED. What are the chances that God would use such men in his “channel of communication” and then never communicate to them when his Son had RETURNED?

2) They not only NEVER KNEW HE RETURNED in 1914, they insisted that he returned in 1874. What are the chances that God would let his earthly channel misinform his people about the time of his Son’s return for seven decades?

3) From 1879 to 1914 their Watch Tower magazine was announcing that Jesus was invisibly present when he wasn’t.- i.e.“Herald of Christ’s Presence”

4) Since they believed that Jesus had RETURNED IN 1874 IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE NOT WATCHING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914. And yet, in Luke’s parallel account (12:37) Jesus said that they would be “happy” only if ‘on arriving (he) found them watching for his return.’ But HE WOULD NOT HAVE FOUND THEM WATCHING IN 1914 BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED HE HAD ALREADY ARRIVED (didn't see began in there anywhere) forty years earlier in 1874.

5) Luke 12:36 says,“At (Jesus’) arriving and knocking they may at once open to him.” But if he arrived and began knocking in 1914 but THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE HIS ARRIVIAL UNTIL 1943, it means that he would have had to knock for twenty-nine years before they opened to him.

6) Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus HAD ALREADY RETURNED (didn't see began), it means that they were the only Christian religion that was NOT WATCHING OR WAITING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that they were the only religion that was watching for his return in that year.
...
For example, they had not been faithful by waiting for Jesus to reveal the time of his return. And they had not been discreet when they announced the wrong date for 67 years. Since they were not waiting for his return in 1914 he would not have declared them “happy.” And I don’t picture Jesus appreciating the fact that he had to knock for 29 years BEFORE ACKNOWLEDGING HIS RETURN IN 1914." END OF QUOTE.

As anyone can readily see the whole gist of the above words of Don Cameron is misleading. You are trying to run a scam and make persons who do not know better believe that Russell, Rutherford, JWs, Bible Students, did not believe Jesus RETURNED in 1914 because his RETURN had already happened/occurred (Cameron's inaccurate words) in 1874 and they did not know Jesus RETURNED in 1914 until 1943.

Face it. You have been exposed as dishonest. What you go around writing is deceptive and you and everyone else know it. By your trying to NOW insert words into what you have written proves that you KNOW that you have been deceptive. If you had accurately and honestly written it in the first place there would be no need to NOW add words.

But ok, since you NOW want to qualify your words that is fine. RETURN ONLY MEANS 'BEGINNING OF CHRIST'S PAROUSIA' in your qualifying words and you NOW admit that you mean they were not looking for the 'beginning of Christ's presence in 1914' then you yourself have destroyed your own premise and your book.

Because you are NOW admitting that they WERE WATCHING AND WAITING for Christ in 1914 and they were the ONLY ONES. And you are admitting that Christ's parousia had not 'already happened' in 1874 but merely the 'beginning of it'. So you admit that Russell and Rutherford DID KNOW about the beginning of his parousia IN KINGDOM POWER in 1914 since he was present (ongoing event) when his coming in Kingdom power began in 1914.

And then you must surely admit that Jesus would be well pleased that they were the only ones watching and waiting for him to begin his parousia in Kingdom power in 1914. And although you said Jesus would not pronounce them happy, in reality you must NOW be saying that he would pronounce them happy since they were WAITING AND WATCHING for the beginning of his parousia/ presence in Kingdom power.

So who else could Jesus have recognized as his FDS? No one else was watching for the beginning of his parousia IN KINGDOM POWER except JWs.

If you know of another group, Don Cameron, please let us know about them. You tried to say it was 7th Day Adventist and/or Christadelphians because someone else told you that and you did not bother to research it for yourself but that was shown to be an error. And you tried to misquote a WT publication just as you misquoted yourself but you were called out on that.

So who is this group besides JWs who were watching and waiting for the beginning of Christ's parousia IN KINGDOM POWER and teaching ALL these basic Bible truths such as no Trinity, no hellfire, God's name, Kingdom, Ransom, paradise, unity, no killing in war etc.?

Here is another example of Cameron's deceit that he pastes on websites. Never once does he qualify that by using the word return he means 'beginning of Christ's parousia/presence/second coming.

"The following assumes that Jesus returned in 1914 and that he did in fact examine what the Society had been teaching down till 1919.

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

Deception to the max but it is good to see that no longer does Don Cameron stand behind these statements. And it is good to see that Don Cameron is NOW admitting that he means 'beginning of second coming' when he says return. And he has shown us that he NOW believes all these statements can be reversed and be true if we are not narrowing the definition of 'return' as Don Cameron NOW does, but are instead using the word 'return' as what it generally means or to mean the beginning of Christ's parousia in Kingdom power.

"1) Russell or Rutherford knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They discreetly announced the right date since 1914.
3) They faithfully waited for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society opened immediately when Jesus knocked and acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

Thanks Don Cameron for FINALLY admitting all of the above to be true.

DonCameron wrote:
TW,
You said, "Since you NOW want to qualify your words that is fine."
I'm not qualifying my words NOW. I have said all along (and throughout my book) that Russell taught that Jesus returned in 1874 to begin his invisible presence. And that according to the "Proclaimers" book the Society has taught that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his invisible presence.

Sorry but that is not how you put it when you copy and paste your writings. You try to lead people to believe that JWs were not WATCHING AND WAITING for Jesus in 1914. In fact that is what you state over and over again. You rarely if ever qualify your statement. And that is deceptive.

DonCameron wrote:
BY THE WAY: You had asked me where the "Proclaimers" book teaches that the Society didn't change the date of Jesus' Second Coming to 1914 until 1943. Did I get that one right or am I lying about that one too?

No I don't believe I ever asked that. What I asked was where in the book does it say, "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever know that Christ returned in 1914." You then said "Thats what the Proclaimers book said". You never told us where to find that quote in the book because its not in there, is it? And that is what is deceptive.

DonCameron wrote:
Anyway, you said, "You NOW admit that you mean that they were not looking for the 'beginning of Christ's presence in 1914' then you yourself have destroyed your own premise and your book."
I don't NOW admit that the Bible Students were not looking for the beginning of Christ's presence in 1914. That's what I have ALWAYS 'admitted' or said. That's what I say in my book.(Perhaps that is not quite what you meant to say?)

No, thats not what you have always said. You most often leave out 'the beginning of his presence' in favor of return or already happened, thus attempting to mislead your readers and that is what is deceptive.

DonCameron wrote:
Would you do me a big favor... Please answer these two questions:
1)Did Russell teach that Jesus returned in 1874 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?
2) Does the Society now teach that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?
I assume you will answer "Yes" to both questions.
I too answer "Yes" to both questions.

I have answered those questions plenty of times and of course I answer yes. But again, that is not what you try to lead your readers to believe which is apparent by the way you have stated things.

Now would you answer these questions?

Are the following statements true?

1) Russell or Rutherford knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2) They discreetly announced the right date since 1914 and even before.
3) They faithfully waited for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4) The Society opened immediately when Jesus knocked and acknowledged his return in 1914.
5) They were faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

And are the following statements false?

The Society’s first two presidents never knew when Jesus RETURNED.
THEY WERE NOT WATCHING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914.
THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE HIS ARRIVIAL UNTIL 1943
they were the only Christian religion that was NOT WATCHING OR WAITING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914.
they announced the wrong date for 67 years.
they were not waiting for his return in 1914 he would not have declared them “happy.”
he had to knock for 29 years BEFORE ACKNOWLEDGING HIS RETURN IN 1914

DonCameron wrote:
"Would you do me a big favor... Please answer these two questions:
1)Did Russell teach that Jesus returned in 1874 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?
2) Does the Society now teach that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?
I assume you will answer "Yes" to both questions.
I too answer "Yes" to both questions."

I stated: I have answered those questions plenty of times and of course I answer yes. But again, that is not what you try to lead your readers to believe which is apparent by the way you have stated things.

I would like to qualify that by stating that 'second coming' is not a correct characterization or translation of Christ's invisible parousia. Second coming implies that he came and it is finished as if the event happened in 1914 and is done. That is not the case at all as you well know. Using the term 'second coming' can cloud what JWs actually believe and that can also be a deceptive tactic.

To the angel of the congregation in Bethel write: These are the things that he says who holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands,'I know your deeds that you have sanctified my Father's name and have made it known but I hold a few things against you in this regard: That you have not removed my Father's name from His word as many of the rest have done, and you continue to speak His name in your own nation, tribe, people, and tongue and not as in the original tongue. I do not hold it against you that you do not speak MY name as it was originated but only that of my Father. I would prefer you not speak or write my Father's name at all but you have spread his name under all creation in whatever tongue you speak. I advise you to seek out generic titles in the name of my Father. Hallelujah! Let the congregation hear what the spirit says!

I know your deeds and how you have thus labored to spread the life giving message of salvation in all the world and have not held back from declaring the good news of the Kingdom to every nation under heaven but this very thing I hold against you: That you have preached this life giving message from house to house and door to door, something I did not command you to do nor did I authorize. In fact, you have made my words invalid when I said,'Do not be transferring from house to house.' Indeed how will you answer when you stand before the throne in judgement? I would hope that your exertion in making known this good news in this manner would cease and you would buy from me the pebble of ease and lackadaisicalness and the manna that spoils itself for you are in danger of losing the prize if you continue thusly.

And while I know your labors that you have unitedly preached the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations I hold this against you: that you are fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought and that you remove those from the synagogue who would seek to divide and disrupt this unity as you did my servant Rahfranziah. And I hold this against you: that you have been obedient to the ones taking the lead among you who I have appointed as my faithful and discreet slave and that you have not denounced the stars in my right hand and written scrolls to lead unwary ones away from them. I advise you to buy independent thinking for yourself and disunity for yourself that you may attain to perfection and that you may attain division and discord.

I am aware that you were watching for my presence in Kingdom power and pointed to that very date. And I know your deeds in doing works greater than I in preaching this good news after my return for all the world to hear. But I hold this against you: That like the twelve you expected more at the time of my return than my Father had purposed. But unlike the twelve who I pronounced as my faithful servants after they had abandoned me, you have been cast aside for these wrong expectations. And you are not my people because although you were indeed watching for my presence in Kingdom power and preaching the truth about my Father and his kingdom like no others you did not fully understand it therefore I do not understand you to be my faithful servant.

And nonetheless you say you have authority as my servant to provide spiritual nourishment like a faithful slave and act as ambassadors on my behalf in my absence. And I well know that you have made known my Father, that he is a God of love rather than a sadistic torturer of lost souls, upholding my ransom sacrifice, and defending his name against those who call him triune, but I say to you that these truths matter not and I have forgotten your holding fast for these truths in the Lord's Day because of your past failings and I have not recognized you as my servant because you were in need of cleansing and you were cleansed and you were in need of refining and were refined. And you humbled yourself and accepted correction. But I look not at the servant you have become but the servant you were. And I look not at what you corrected and now teach but what you taught incorrectly that you did correct. And you believe that because I appointed those in the upper room at Pentecost as my faithful slave, even though they had faithlessly and indiscreetly abandoned me in my greatest tribulation just a few days earlier, but I forgave them, that you might likewise prove to be my servant but in your humility I will cast you aside even as a Father does his beloved son who listens to discipline and accepts correction.

I know that you have bought refined gold from me and have put on white outer garments. And you have used my eye salve for viewing the straight paths that you should walk. You have confessed your errors and freely acknowledge that your understanding of my Father's purpose has needed refining and correcting. And you have repented and acknowledged this with these words:

“errors”
“mistakes”
“misplaced zeal”
“unrealized hopes”
“previous failures”
“misinterpretations”
“misunderstandings”
“our understanding”
“misplaced optimism”
“wrong expectations”
“hopes and expectations”
“premature expectations”
“misplaced expectations”
“disappointed expectations”
“errors in their teachings”
“incomplete concepts”
“inaccurate concepts”
“serious disappointments”
“formerly cherished views”
“mistakes in their understanding”
“views in need of refinement”
“an expressed opinion”
“cherished errors”
“wrong beliefs”
“old truths”
“past truths”
“expectations needing some adjustment”
“matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed”

Nevertheless, I hold this against you: that you have not used the word 'false' to describe you inaccuracies, or at least you have not satisfactorily used that word enough, to the fullest extent possible. And in your scroll of the Proclaimers I have not found one single time when you used the word false to describe your errors and mistakes nor has the third witness revealed the word in the scroll to my servant Cameronias. I advise you to use the word 'false' more often for the sake of the good news and for the sake of my Father's name.

And while I know that you have not claimed divine inspiration from the holy spirit in the things you have written. And I know you make no claims of divine visions and revelations from my Father. And I know that you have not claimed infallibility in my name. And that you have bought refined gold from me and corrected you errors, nevertheless I hold this against you: That you have not confessed to being a false prophet. And you continue to claim you have not prophesyed in my name. And now I command you to continue to go and make disciples, all the while acknowledging that you are a false prophet as you continue without letup declaring the good news of the kingdom in all the earth, teaching and baptizing people of all the nations, as I have no one else making such truths known in all the world as you have done.

Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.

new info coming soon

who is forbidden to eat chocolate muffins.

What's that, a reference to a Topix discussion?
I haven't been there in a year.

3W probably referred to this
http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/

This is a Good Quote that I just saw on that Blog Link

Those who do not have the truth cannot argue against it. If they are opposed to the truth for some reason of their own, then they will try to counteract it by telling things that are not true. But the truth cannot be hidden for long if you are really interested in finding it. Jesus said: “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” -MacMillan

Cameron next started a thread entitled as above and applied it to the governing body. But who is the true devious cunning propagandist?

1. Deviousness: "he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ...."--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: "They were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and establish his own righteous government....They were waiting and watching for Jesus to come in order to be present as earth’s new Ruler."--Don Cameron.

2. Keeping in mind that JWs teach that the FDS is God's organization of anointed ones:

Deviousness: "If they didn't receive that appointment in 1919 then they cannot be God's organization in 2008."--Cameron.

Contradiction: "the Society’s teaching is that the appointment mentioned Matthew 24:47 does NOT refer to an appointment to become Jesus’“faithful and discreet slave." ...That verse does not say,“He will appointment him to be his faithful and discreet Slave.’ "--Don Cameron.

3. Deviousness: "they have HAD TO ELIMINATE EVERY TRACE of the organization's teachings and prophecies that were ever false."--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: "the Society has freely acknowledge that their understanding of God’s purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years"--Don Cameron.

4. Deviousness: Their literature simply refuses to use the word “false” in connection with anything the Society has ever taught no matter how false it was.--Don Cameron.

Contradiction: There are actually "a few isolated instances where they DID use that word."--Don Cameron.

More deviousness: Since Don Cameron was proven wrong he is going to change 'Their literature' to 'the Proclaimers book' thus he can continue to try to mislead.

5. Deviousness: "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
That’s what the “Proclaimers” book says."

But he could never provide us with that quote.

6. Deviousness: And he also said that the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters."

Later he claimed he didn't say religion, at least not in his book. And of course, he never provided us with the quote from the Proclaimers book.

7. Deviousness: "“The most important Scripture in WT theology....Matthew 24:45-47.”--Don Cameron.

Later when Don Cameron was shown to be in error he stated: "This is a true statement. It’s just that ThirdWitness (and even his Governing Body) doesn’t realize that this is the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology."--Don Cameron.

8. Deviousness: He admits he does not explain what JWs taught in the early 1900s about the 'beginning of Christ's parousia' and the establishment of his Kingdom. He is content on providing half the information in hopes of misleading others.

9. Deviousness: He says he chooses not to look at the evidence since 1919 as to whether JWs passed the test. The truth is he has already looked at or examined the evidence since 1919 but he merely refuses to acknowledge what the evidence reveals.

DonCameron wrote:
Hi Topsy,
IWhen you read TW's “Devious/Contradiction” list (Post #16), do you notice anything where he misrepresents what I have been saying? What about this first example:
“Deviousness: "He (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ...."--Don Cameron.”

I hope you notice that what I have always said is that Jesus would not have found them watching FOR JESUS’ PAROUSIA TO BEGIN in 1914. Have you noticed that he ALWAYS leaves the capitalized part out of my statement?

It is funny that while trying to defend your devious ways you have done nothing but provide another example of that deviousness. It is you yourself Don Cameron who is guilty of leaving off the part that you captilize when you go on internet sites promoting your devious views.

If you go here:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=1262&page=2

You will find this quote from Don Cameron where he leaves out 'THE BEGINNING OF CHRIST'S PAROUSIA". He says: "But he would not have found them watching in 1914 because they believed he had already arrived forty years earlier in 1874."

It is interesting that out of the 9 points of deviousness that I bring up on Don Cameron's part he only tries to defend himself on one and that defense showed even more deviousness on his part. Surely it can be seen why the words 'devious charlatan' fits so well.

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DonCameron wrote:
Topsy,
Do you have any idea why he treats me so harshly when I have never said one single hasty thing back to him?

Why do you ask Topsy? I would gladly tell you. I think it is self evident though from what I have proven about you. You can probably use your thinking ability and figure it out. I will give you a few words as hints.

Betrayer, deceit, untruths, misleader, ego obvious agenda regardless of truth.

Sorry, I just do not like to see a person try to mislead with deception and influence others with untruths to leave the organization knowing that they have been proven to be in error. Your agenda transcends what you know to be the truth. You can't even begin to defend yourself without using more deceit.

As I put it previously, you, Don Cameron, have been proven to be a devious charlatan. Call me crazy but I am not fond of devious charlatans.

Let me put it more succinctly: You are purposely trying to destroy the faith of others in Jehovah and his organization with deceit, misinformation, and lies. That is low down.

Another example of the deceit of Don Cameron. He wrote:

If the Second Coming of Christ is yet in the future, then it would seem that you both may miss it again unless to stop believing that it already happened.

Notice Don Cameron does not use the words,'the beginning of Christ's presence or second coming'. Don Cameron knows that the 'second coming of Christ' or parousia has not 'already happened' as he states. It continues. Since Christ's parousia is here and continues on into the future it is indeed yet future. Since it is yet future and we continue to look for Christ coming to execute judgement during this parousia how could it be said that we would miss it.

Quite misleading and deceitful. Don't you think, Don Cameron?

And heres another example of the deviousness.
I asked Don Cameron this very important question: "Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914?"

Don Cameron replied: I feel your question needs to specify what they were waiting for in 1914.

I agree. And Don Cameron here exposes himself as deceitful for it is he himself who purposely fails to specify in his book what they were watching and waiting for in 1914. In fact, rather than specify, he tries to HIDE that they were watching and waiting for Christ to come in Kingdom power in 1914. He even states: "But he would not have found them watching in 1914..." And yet, now he admits that it needs to be specified. Don Cameron is condemned by his own words of deceit.

DonCameron wrote:
Good morning Topsy,
You asked,“Do you explain in your book the difference between the beginning of the coming, Jesus invisible presence and the culmination or end of this presence which would be his return at Armageddon?’
No I don’t.

You see that Don Cameron admits that he purposely leaves out what JWs believed about the 'second coming' or parousia of Christ.

He tells us that JWs believed that it 'already happened' or that 'it happened 40 years' before 1914. This is simply not true is it Don Cameron? He does not think it important to inform his reader that JWs believe that Christ came in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia. At no point before 1914 or after 1914 did JWs ever believe that Christ's parousia had 'already happened' or 'happened 40 years earlier'.

Do you know, Don Cameron, that in 1914 JWs believed that Jesus was in his parousia or 2nd coming, STILL. How then did they miss him coming in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia or 2nd coming? That would be impossible.

This statement is then true: Jesus invisible parousia/presence in kingdom power began in 1914? JWs have preached that since 1914 and before, don't you agree?

And don't you agree that you have at least been just a little devious?

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DonCameron wrote:
TW asked,“Do you know, Don Cameron, that in 1914 JWs believed that Jesus was in his parousia or 2nd coming, STILL.”

Yes. In 1914 they believed that Jesus had been in his parousia for 40 years since 1874. But you and I know they were mistaken. And they had no clue that his parousia did not begin until 1914.

And according to the “Proclaimers” it wasn’t until 1943 that the Society finally realized that Jesus had been in his parousia only since 1914.

I’m sure TW can turn that negative evidence into something positive. But I am not able to do so.
In my way of thinking, if Jesus did begin his parousia in 1914 but it took 29 years for the Society to realize it, I cannot squeeze anything faithful and discreet out of such a huge mistake.
Don

The Society realized that Jesus' parousia in Kingdom power began in 1914 from 1914 onward. They also pointed to his parousia in Kingdom power before 1914. Your point is irrelevant. Thats why you have to cloak it with deceit leaving words out when you post things on internet sites. Otherwise, it has no bite.

By the way, you would have been a great apostate in the first century. You could have given Diotrephes a run for his money as the best or most dangerous. You could have pointed out the HUGE mistake of the apostles abandoning Jesus (much huger than the minor mistake made by Russell that Jesus' parousia began in 1874). And how they expected Jesus to restore the Kingdom of Israel right then. Or how they expected him to return before John died.

Then you could have said how Jesus would not have found them faithful and discreet and would not have recognized them as his organizaton at Pentecost 33 CE. And you could have said, I don't look at the evidence since Pentecost 33CE but only what they were teaching and doing before then. They were neither faithful or discreet.

Yes, you would have been a mighty apostate against The Way. But of course, you would have been exposed then as you have been now. I guess some things never change.

DonCameron wrote:
TW: Would you show us where the Society says that they realized that Jesus' parousia in Kingdom power began in 1914 from 1914 onward?

P.S. Where does the expression "in Kingdom power" come from?

March 1880 WT:“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

Feb 15, 1915 WT: "We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914."

Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922, Brother Rutherford stated:
"“... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns."

HARP OF GOD, 1921, PAGE 244:
"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914...the Lord Jesus Christ,...stood up and began to exercise his power."

Now since they believed he was in his parousia since 1874 then they likewise believed he was in his parousia in 1914. And since that was the case then they believed his parousia in Kingdom power began in 1914. Therefore they were watching and waiting for Jesus to begin his parousia in Kingdom power in 1914.

Claude Kenneson wrote:
While Russell and the Bible Students believed in the invisible presence of Jesus in 1874, the current Watchtower Society holds no significance to that date. How much plainer can it be than that?

Do you imagine you have given us new information that we are not aware of? We have been saying this from day one.

They did believe the Kingdom had begun to be set up in 1878. We have never said differently. But They still looked to 1914 as the inauguration date of the kingdom. And that date would have been during Christ's parousia. Therefore they looked forward to the beginning of Christ's parousia in his Kingdom in 1914. After 1914 they continued to state that the beginning of his parousia in Kingdom power came in 1914.

DonCameron wrote:
TW,
I see your reasoning. Thanks for explaining it.
But I thought Claude made an important point when he said, "They claimed that 1878 was the time when Christ assumed his POWER as heavenly King (and not 1914 as you maintain). That view came after everything they anticipated by 1914 did not occur."
What is your thought on that point?
Don

I thought Don Cameron as the substitute teacher for Christ in giving a failing grade to JWs was an expert on what the WTS taught before 1919. Now you must rely on what Claude tells you?

It is not surprising that you cast your lot in with him before you know any better. That is not the first time that you agreed with someone, just because it was against JWs, before you knew if what they said was true or not.

For example, after you said that JWs were not the only religion teaching these basic truths, someone said that Christadelphians and 7th Day Adventist also taught them and you of course immediately accepted what they said before researching it yourself. But you were both in error.

Then there was the time that Propmin referred to a WT where he said that the WTS was saying that the FDS was appointed as the FDS in 1919 and you were quick to cast your lot in with him on that declaring that either Propmin was correct or the WTS poorly explained things.

So here you have now agreed with Claude even though you apparently don't know the beliefs of JWs before 1919 as you have claimed. Once again you have blundered and are about to be exposed for what you truly are---a devious charlatan.

Prior to 1914 it is true that Russell and the Bible Students believed that Christ's presence began in 1874 but they did not believe that the Gentile Times had ended and Christ had taken up reigning in full Kingdom power. They pointed to 1914 as the date for this to happen.

So Thy Kingdom Come published in 1911 on page 235 said: "Our belief that the Kingdom BEGAN TO BE SET UP, or bourght into power, in April 1878..." A similar statement is made on page 305: "The Times of the Gentiles will expire with the year 1914; ...the God of heaven will set up a Kingdom, and that the setting up of that Kingdom has actually BEEN IN PROGRESS since the year 1878..."

Notice what is said. It was believed that Christ's presence began in 1874 and yet the Kingdom did not began to be set up until 1878. And yet, the Kingdom would not be set up until 1914 when the Gentile Times expired. They were watching and waiting for the beginning of Christ's parousia in his Kingdom in 1914. So when 1914 did arrive, the Bible Students actually believed that invisible presence of Christ in his Kingdom took place in 1914 at the expiration of the Gentile Times EVEN AFTER 1914 HAD PASSED.

Really Don Cameron, how long will you continue in your devious ways? Isn't it time to confess and turn around? You know you and your misconceptions have been exposed. Everyone knows, even your friends here, although they will not admit it. But you don't have to be like other stiff-necked apostates and opposers. Be humble and admit your error and return to Jehovah. The longer you go the harder it is.

Claude Kenneson wrote:

Russell and the Bible Students placed significance on the dates of 1874 and 1878.

Does the Watchtower believe that anything significant happened in 1874 or 1878? What is the current view of those latter dates? The Watchtower believes that both the parousia (presence) and Kingdom power began in 1914. Russell and the Bible Students had a flawed chronology. Nothing happened in 1874 and 1878; these dates have no connection to 1914.

The WTS has admitted that Russell and the WTS was wrong about 1874 and 1878. They would have likewise discarded 1914 if it was incorrect. It would have been no big deal. But the evidence for 1914 was too overwhelming to discard that date. So they kept it.

Thats the difference in true religion and false relgions. True religion allows God to refine and cleanse them and correct mistaken beliefs, practices, and ideas. False religion sticks to the same old false notions such as the Trinity, hellfire etc. The prophecies foretell the refining and cleansing of God's organization. So there you have it in a nutshell.

Claude Kenneson wrote:

So, all those mental gymnastics you took us through to convince us that the parousia extended from 1874 through 1914 is wrong? Is that what you are finally admitting?

I've never tried to convince you of that. All I have ever said is that before 1914 JWs believed that Christ would begin his invisible parousia in Kingdom power in 1914. And after 1914 they continued to teach that he began his invisible parousia in Kingdom power in 1914.

Claude Kenneson wrote:
The invisible parousia (1874) and Jesus' rule (1914) are two distinct things with two different dates for the early Bible Students and Russell. You seem to be trying to say that they believed both would take place in 1914, and that is not the case.

JWs believed that Christ was in his parousia in 1874. They also believed he was in his parousia in 1875 and 1876 and 1877....and 1910 and 1911 and 1912 and 1913 and yes even 1914. They also believed that the Kingdom of God would be inaugurated in 1914. Therefore, they believed that Christ's parousia IN KINGDOM POWER began in 1914. It ain't that complicated as you try to make it.

Claude Kenneson wrote:
So claiming that they were looking for the parousia in 1914 when they already believed it had taken place in 1874 is ridiculous.

Claude, you have a misnomer here much like Don Cameron's misnomer. JWs did not believe that Christ's parousia had 'already taken place' in 1874. They believed it had BEGAN in 1874 and was continuing on into the future. It had not 'already taken place' or 'already happened' as Don Cameron stated previously. That would denote that it took place and was finished. But they did not believe it was finished. They believed it was ongoing.

And Why do we keep having to have this same old conversation over and over again. You say the same thing everytime. I have not said that JWs were looking for only Christ's parousia in 1914. Please pay close attention this time. I sure hope it will be the last time I have to correct you on this.

JWs were watching and waiting for the beginning of Christ's parousia IN KINGDOM POWER in 1914. After 1914, they believed that the beginning of Christ's parousia IN KINGDOM POWER began in 1914. That is what we still believe today.

If Christ is already in his parousia and during his parousia in 1914 he takes his Kingdom power and rules then that means that the beginning of Christ's parousia in kingdom power began at that time of 1914. Thats what they believed in 1914.

No they did not believe his parousia BEGAN in 1914. But they did believe his parousia IN KINGDOM POWER began in 1914. And that is what we still believe.

So no longer do we believe that his parousia BEGAN in 1874. But we do believe exactly what Russell and the Bible students believed in 1914 and that is that Jesus' parousia IN KINGDOM POWER began in 1914.

DonCameron wrote:
Why is it that when Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity it DOES prove that they are the true religion but when the Christadelphians don't believe in the Trinity it does NOT prove that they are are the true religion?

What makes the difference?

Seems the Christadelphians do not believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence. Seems they also have not preached the good new of the Kindom worldwide having only 50,000 members at this time. I would just take an educated guess based on this and say that they are not preaching this good news of the kingdom worldwide. But perhaps I am wrong.

Wait. There is a knock at my door. I think it is a Christadelphian. No, my bad. Just one of those pesty old Jehovah's Witnesses.

If the Christadelphians are God's organization they have done a very poor job thus far of fulfilling Matthew 24:14. I have never had one contact me nor anyone I have ever talked to about it in my entire life. Maybe Jesus makes poor decisions? Or more likely they were not the ones that Jesus recognized as his people since they were not doing the best job at preaching this good news worldwide and did not have the capacity and potential to preach this good new worldwide. What do you think, Don Cameron?

So the difference is that Christadelphians are not preaching all these basic truths worldwide as JWs are doing in fulfillment of Jesus' command and prophecy. In all my life, with all the different people of different religions I have talked to I have never in my entire life talked to a Christadelphian. And that despite the fact that I have been going door and door and talking to more people than the average person will talk to.

Now if I have never ran across a Christadelphian, it is very unlikely that most people will in their entire lifetime not talk to one.

So are they preaching the good news worldwide? Hardly! Perhaps a person like Don Cameron does not think that fact to be of much importance but Jesus certainly did for he said,'this good news will be preached in ALL the inhabited earth' and 'make disciples of people of ALL the nations'.

DonCameron wrote:

And so it isn't just that the Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity that proves that they have or are in the true religion.
Don

Correctly identifying the true God is the number one factor. But more is included than just knowing he is not triune such as making known his name etc. Only JWs are doing this worldwide.

I know that Don Cameron so badly wants JWs not to be God's organization. So much so that when someone says, See here, the Christadelphians, see there, the 7th Day Adventists, look, the Mormons. He is quick to accept that they teach what JWs teach without even examining it for himself. But the facts show that they don't. He must find anyway he possibly can to discredit them. And to show that their teachings and worldwide preaching is not unique.

Why is it so hard for Don Cameron and other apostapposers to admit that the teachings of JWs are unique to only JWs and that JWs are the only ones teaching these things worldwide?

And yet Don Cameron and his chronies are unable to name other religions that are teaching what JWs teach worldwide?

Why is it so difficult to admit? Why is it so difficult to admit that if the nameless triune sadistic nationalistic disunified god is not the true God then only JWs are teaching the truth about God?

I readily admit that if the nameless triune sadistic nationalistic disunified god is the true God then JWs are wrong and are not God's organization. But Cameron and friends have such a hard time admitting the opposite. Instead they want to pretend that there are other religions that teach the same doctrine of JWs worldwide despite their failure at naming those religions.

WhY?

DonCameron wrote:
ThirdWitness,
I have never used the expression "invisible presence in Kingdom power"? I never even heard that expression until you brought it up.

...P.S. Again, if you find where the Society uses the expression "invisible presence in Kingdom power" please let me know where.

Once again Don Cameron shows his misconceptions about the teachings of JWs. Perhaps if he had learned our teachings he would not have let go of the skirt of those who are God's people and began beating them instead.

5-15-74 WT
No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted you with the power and presence [parousia, the invisible presence in Kingdom power]...Do you discern his invisible presence in Kingdom power?

4-1-2000 WT
It would be discernible only with the eyes of understanding on the part of those who recognize “the sign” of Jesus’ invisible presence in Kingdom power.(Matthew 24:3)

5-1-94 WT
2 Toward the end of his ministry on earth, Jesus foretold the sign of his invisible presence in Kingdom power.(Matthew, chapters 24 and 25)

9-15-64 WT
His answer constitutes a sure sign to Christians on earth today who exercise faith as did those disciples and who discern unmistakably his invisible presence in Kingdom power, though all Christendom is blind to this fact of utmost importance to mankind.

There are many many more that I could quote from as that expression and similar ones are used over and over again in the WT publications.

DonCameron wrote:
Am I correct to say that that expression has nothing to do with Jesus' parousia ("invisible presence" or "Second Coming"?

Totally incorrect!

DonCameron wrote:
The “Proclaimes” book says that the Society did not discern Jesus’ invisible presence from and after 1914 until 1943.

Again I ask on what page the WTS said that they did not discern Jesus' invisible presence until 1943.

Since they thought he was present in 1874, they also thought he was present in 1875,1876 1877..1899 1900 ...1913 1914 1915. They also pointed to 1914 as the year of Christ in kingdom power. After 1914 they continued to look at 1914 as the year Christ came in Kingdom power. So clearly it can be seen that they did discern his invisible presence in kingdom power in 1914.

Don Cameron has created a strawman in claiming that since JWs believed Christ's presence began before 1914 then they were not looking for his invisible presence in kingdom power in 1914 and that is incorrect. Don Cameron also likes to leave out the word 'begin' when he talks about Christ's presence because he wants everyone to believe that JWs thought Christ presence was in 1874. For example his very first words on this thread are: "The “Proclaimes” book says that the Society did not discern Jesus’ invisible presence from and after 1914 until 1943."

Of course Cameron cannot show us where the proclaimers book actually says what he claims because the fact is that the WTS did indeed discern Christ's presence from and after 1914.

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Little Charley told everyone that he believed he heard the song of the ice cream truck. He told them that he believed it had just turned down their block and would be at their houses in 5 minutes and so he went out to meet the ice cream truck. But the ice cream truck had not turned down the block as he had thought. He had misplaced the song of the ice cream truck. Instead it came from the other end of the block but it still arrived 5 minutes later as little Charley had said.

When little Donny finally came outside the ice cream truck was long gone. He went around telling all his friends that little Charley had missed the ice cream truck because he thought it turned down their block from the other direction when it really didn't.

Little Donny came up behind little Charley chanting, "Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

Little Charley turned around to expose his chocolate covered fudgcical grin. Little Donny paused for a moment. He knew that little Charley had been watching for the ice cream truck all along but he would not now admit it. He would be a laughing stock to all his friends.

Little Donny ran off hollering as loud as he could, ""Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

When a friend pointed to the chocolate fudgcical all over little Charley's face, little Donny needed an explanation. How would he convince his friends that Charley had missed the ice cream truck? He thought up a brilliant idea.

He would tell how Charley said the ice cream truck had turned down their block when it really hadn't. Charley had been wrong about that. Donny would then tell all his friends that since Charley thought the ice cream truck was here before it really was here then Charley did not get any ice cream at all because he came outside too early to meet the ice cream truck.

I will get all Charley's friends to turn on him he thought to himself. Donny slyly smiled.